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Group Build Future Policy - the next order of business


Enzo the Magnificent

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Three years ago we all voted on various policies for groupbuilds.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/714-group-build-future-policy/

 

One aspect which wasn't dealt with was the question of what do we do with GB proposals which do not make it into The Bunfight.  There was an informal policy which said that they had to start from scratch in the next calender year but it was never endorsed with a vote.  I then complicated the situation by neglecting to move the relevant threads at the end of last year.

 

So...   let's get this cleared up.  I will open another poll to decide this question.  The options will be:

 

Proposals which do not make The Bunfight:

  • must start from scratch in the following year.
  • will get one bye into the following year and then start from scratch
  • will get two byes into the following years and then start from scratch

 

I would like to discuss these options here before I put up the poll.

 

Please note I have already agreed that all proposals in the chat area will get a bye this year.  Whatever options we agree in this vote will come into force at the end of 2024.

 

 

 

 

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Kill them instantly and start over. The GB process is Byzantine in complexity and  geological in timescale. New guys often struggle to make sense of it.

 

Giving ‘byes’ takes the time between original ideas and actually building something to a possible four years, I believe. There aren’t many people who can sustain high enthusiasm for that long and ten percent of us will be dead by start time. 
 

Finally, proposals which are dead and dying clutter up the bunfight. Their original seconders having long drifted away. 
 

But then, what do I know?

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Discuss, well my :2c: then. I think it's difficult to generalize these non-goers, but we should dump them all. If a proposal loses the Bunfight with a vote or two, yet has 52 supporters, it will be dumped. No byes. Then a proposal struggles to get just 30 members signed in on it and it gets a second year, I see no reason in that. By the way, as you know about me I think setting up a GB proposal is just fun :giggle:. Also, I think that when a GB proposer gets tired of a topic it should be immediately dumped in the GB Chat archives instead of having it hang around for a year with no interest from the proposer or the BMGB Massive. V-P

 

*Edit: Remember that a VOTE is kind of a commitment, or at least the number of votes is limited, whereas we can sign in without any commitments to umpteens of GB proposals - yet many don't gain those 30 "free" signings.

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I see no logical difference between giving one free pass, two or twenty. If losing entries are not to be discarded now, then why not just keep them going forever?

 

It would be great in the casinos though, you would place your money on number seven and it would stay there forever until it wins. I’d vote for that. 🤣

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12 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

The GB process is Byzantine in complexity and  geological in timescale. New guys often struggle to make sense of it.

 

That is a very good point.  Hopefully when this vote is completed we will have a consistent GB constitution (for want of a better word).  I can then publish it and pin it for the benefit of all.   If this vote requires that we start from scratch each year, that will do a lot to reduce the geological timescale.

 

The policy for STGBs used to be that when one reached the threshold it was immediately given the next available slot.  We got to the situation where we were planning STGBs three years in advance simply because that was the way we had always done it!  The policy vote put an end to such silliness.

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20 minutes ago, Enzo the Magnificent said:

a consistent GB constitution (for want of a better word).  I can then publish it and pin it for the benefit of all.


Yes Please! 
 

I spent ages last year, when promoting Entropy, explaining the system individually to people and urging them to stick with it long enough. In the event, many initial enthusiasts never showed up to the party. That’s inevitable to an extent of course, but I think the long wait time is a big part of it. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

tend to counter the falling level of participation?

 

I'm not convinced that there is a falling level of participation.   It true that there have been less Bunfight voters this year, but they seem to be the usual suspects.  There is a loyal cadre of GB participants who come back time and time again.  The GB forum is certainly very vibrant and this year has been one of the busiest I can remember.

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3 minutes ago, modelling minion said:

So on that basis it is much fairer to make everyone start from scratch.

I agree as well. 

 

Could we then have a separate page for "GB Proposals 2025" (and so on, for each year) so that the "Chat" can be used for chat and it's easier to see which threads are actually proposals?

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Just now, JeroenS said:

Could we then have a separate page for "GB Proposals 2025" (and so on, for each year) so that the "Chat" can be used for chat and it's easier to see which threads are actually proposals?

 

What an excellent idea!

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I agree too that 'losers' should be killed off immediately.  There's no benefit to having byes, as far as I can see.

 

A BIGGER ISSUE, as far as I'm concerned is the fact that full GBs and STGBs get an equal allocation of places.  So this year we've seen seven STGBs all go through without any competition and only having to gather 25 nominations.  I can imagine that this must be quite galling for the supporters of those full GBs that didn't quite make it through the bunfight.  

 

Full disclosure:  this is a long-standing hobby-horse of mine and last time we discussed it, I seemed to be in a minority of one :winkgrin:.

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9 minutes ago, Enzo the Magnificent said:

There is a loyal cadre of GB participants who come back time and time again.


I think that’s my point really. It’s almost a closed shop. The regulars know the rules and accept them by tradition. Other potential participants find it hard to understand and hard to stick with.

 

I was very confused by the system until a few months AFTER the point when I made my own proposal. 🤪 I couldn’t understand it from the outside - but I’m a bear of very little brains

 

 

🧸

2 minutes ago, JeroenS said:

I agree as well. 

 

Could we then have a separate page for "GB Proposals 2025" (and so on, for each year) so that the "Chat" can be used for chat and it's easier to see which threads are actually proposals?


Great idea!

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2 minutes ago, CliffB said:

A BIGGER ISSUE, as far as I'm concerned is the fact that full GBs and STGBs get an equal allocation of places.  So this year we've seen seven STGBs all go through without any competition and only having to gather 25 nominations.  I can imagine that this must be quite galling for the supporters of those full GBs that didn't quite make it through the bunfight. 

 

How would you propose that we resolve this?   As the current system was voted in in 2020 I would prefer to keep it running until the end of 2025.  By that time it will have been in place for five years and we can review everything again with another series of votes.

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My view is wash them out. A GB either happens - it gets across the line in the vote - or it's dead. 

 

As others have noted, good ideas might get support again but they need to start from 0 in the "GB Chat", not return there with votes from the previous year. 

 

I also wonder whether we need a rule, or whether the market will self-regulate, that we don't get essentially the same GB year after year. In the time I've been actively participating I think there's been good diversity but it's possibly worth thinking about if you're thinking of a GB Constitution. I'm guessing, this being Britmodeller, this Constitution will be an amorphous collection of traditions and convention rather than simply something written down...but either way that might be a guiding principle worth noting. As I say for the most part it seems to self-regulate well so far. 

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Just now, Enzo the Magnificent said:

 

How would you propose that we resolve this?   As the current system was voted in in 2020 I would prefer to keep it running until the end of 2025.  By that time it will have been in place for five years and we can review everything again with another series of votes.

 Don’t worry about it Enzo, it’s only Cliff and me. 😁 Stick the the original question for now. 

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2 minutes ago, bianfuxia said:

I also wonder whether we need a rule, or whether the market will self-regulate, that we don't get essentially the same GB year after year.

 

We already have that.  :)

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

New guys often struggle to make sense of it.

 

I feel this can't be stressed enough, I speak from experience while watching the 2021 bunfight unfold as a newb.

 

I completely agree with Bertie. If they crash and burn, they crash and burn. People come and go, interests can wane and change. Also, it gives the proposer a chance to rethink or adjust the parameters if they choose to go again. 

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Can I ask a question.. Were any of this years or next years successful GB’s previously failed GB’s and only made it through by virtue of a bye? If the answer is no, then perhaps we scrap the bye system altogether and start things off from scratch. Just my thoughts, others may disagree. 
 

Cheers.. Dave
 

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Okay...   I'm getting a sense of what is wanted.   I will still put it to a formal vote though.   Does anyone think there should be any other options available?

 

I've taken @JeroenS suggestion on board and added an extra forum. 

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/814-groupbuild-proposals-2025/

 

There is now a clear route for GB proposals to take. 

 

Chat  -  initial suggestions

Proposals  -  firm proposals for the Bunfight

Bunfight  -  an area with tiled walls and floors that can be hosed down easily to get rid of the blood and guts

Future Groupbuilds

Current Groupbuilds

Completed groupbuilds

1 minute ago, jackroadkill said:

I thought we agreed that there were to be no byes at all.  It seems simplest that way.

True, there are no byes in The Bunfight.  This is about byes for proposals which didn't make it to The Bunfight.

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