SCC15 vs US Olive Drab

[The original Kit Builder]

Good day.

 

I am looking for views about the extent to which SCC15 was used on Sherman Fireflies.

 

Undoubtedly, it was used on those areas subject to modification, but how extensive would it have further used?

 

I would seem likely that the easy to reach areas would be repainted, for uniformity, but what about the harder to reach, less visible areas, like behind side skirts, hatch interiors and so on?

 

I doubt there is anything definitive. Not that I have found, anyway, but what evidence or learned opinion is there otherwise?

 

TIA

 

 

[Bullbasket]

I believe, as a rule, anything coming from the US was left in OD. It was only when the vehicle was having extensive work done, such as converting to a Firefly, that they were repainted in SCC15. Sometimes, awkward places to reach, such as the lower hull, behind the running gear, were left in OD. That is certainly true of some of the Shermans in N.Africa, when they were repainted in desert colours. Steve Zaloga covered this in one of his articles in Military Modeller.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

Regarding Fireflies in particular, where the external modifications were relatively few, it has been claimed that only the modified areas were repainted SCC15.  The extended bustle, mantlet shield and hull MG plug.  But that glosses over the fact that almost all Shermans processed through the UK - i.e. all Fireflies - also had other "standard" British modifications fitted such as the rear fire extinguisher brackets, rear stowage box on M4A4s, leaf spring towing pintle and glacis spare link holders.  And then there were the various little wading fittings on tanks modified for wading.  None of these would have justified a whole-tank repaint and Fireflies were in urgent need and there were never enough, so getting them out of the door as fast as possible would have been a priority. 

 

Although anything involving welding would require the removal of some paint back to bare metal around the areas to be welded, so the repaint would include an area around, for example, each of the spare link brackets.  Maybe an inch all round, a fraction of a mm in 1/35.  The bustle painting would necessarily include a margin of the original turret all round.

 

SCC15 was a very different colour to OD No9.  For a start it is a green, whereas OD is a brown.  A very greenish brown but a brown nonetheless.  More like Khaki Green 3 than SCC15, which is why we originally accepted it as a Khaki Green substitute on Grants and other pre-Lend-Lease purchases.  But is this difference apparent in monochrome images?  Firefly images don't seem to show noticeably differently-coloured bustles and mantlets.  Firefly conversions would have taken place in the SCC15 era but many of the "standard" modifications on earlier vehicles would have taken place in the SCC2 era before Jan 44.  And they were not painted in SCC2: that would be obvious in images.

 

Which leads me to wonder if the UK received supplies of OD paint or whether the large crates of On Vehicle Materiel shipped with each tank contained a tin of "touch up" OD paint for use at the receiving depot where tanks would be prepared for unit issue.  Although US depots probably stocked it anyway.  You can find images of the on-vehicle operational stowage but that isn't necessarily exactly the same as the shipped OVM.  There are no surviving original-paint Fireflies, or indeed any UK Shermans.  All have either been repainted if restored or the paint has degraded and flaked away if still un-restored.

 

New tanks were preferred for Firefly conversions, which is why you see so many IC Hybrids and direct vision Baldwin ICs as these were the last new-build 75mm tanks the UK could get.  Also why you see so many direct vision VCs as 1,600-odd remanufactured early M4A4s from US training bases - the first 1,600-odd built - were being supplied during 1944 until about Sept.  Some older M4A4s were converted, but the majority of tanks fed into the Firefly programme would have been factory-fresh.

 

To add fuel to the fire - I'm not helping here, am I? - the single known photo of US Firefly conversions in 1945 shows the single visible Ordnance serial stencilled on in an odd place in small font and without the USA prefix.  Which could imply - and I only say could - that the vehicles had been fully repainted.  But many of the 80-odd US tanks were older, although possibly freshly remanufactured, and may have needed a repaint anyway.  US forces wanted the 17pdr urgently and I doubt they cared about the colour it came in.  But equally, did the UK care about patch-painted 2-tone Fireflies?

 

So I've rambled my way to pretty much no firm conclusion.  Logic and the exigencies of the time suggest that patch-repainting in SCC15 made most sense.  Beyond that an SCC15 repaint seems next most likely.  But I don't think we can conclusively rule out the possibility of patch-repainting in OD.

[JackG]

Probably an exercise in futility,  but took the photo of this Sherman from @Kingsman and created a colour swatch to compare with Sovereign Hobbies Colourcoats digital sample of their SCC15.   In a grey scale perceptual luminance form, the British version of olive drab is a bit bit darker by maybe four percent?   I think the difference would be barely noticeable if at all with an overall accumulation of dust and dirt.

 

 

 

[Pete Robin]

I can't give any wonderful technical addition to this topic, but I have some scribbled notes, made over a lot of years, after listening to my old fella. He never gave specifics (apart from one or two), and my note taking was downright c**p at times, so they are a bit muddled. Anyhoos, the upshot of this is that I have a scribble (which was more about Sextons than Shermans, but they were included), which states that most of the vehicles loaded for D Day looked like Rafferty's Motor Car (ie: forty shades of green).

I was told that stuff was touched up, painted, obliterated or whatever, by whichever can of paint was handy and what was available at short notice.

I think that after a few days exposed to salt water, then salty sand, then whatever whatever thrown up at at them, it ain't gonna matter a jot what colour they started in. The all ended up a uniformj shade of YUCK.

I hope this hasn't stalled the wonderful treatises that have appeared above, I bow, as ever,  to greater knowledge than mine.

 

Regards

Pete

 

[The original Kit Builder]

Thanks for all the considered opinions.

As these things often are, it seems to be something of a minefield, with little definitive information from contemporary sources.

It would seem that when reproduced in black and white, there was insufficient tonal difference to stand out.

However, there is a lot of sense in the comments and plenty to ponder.

[Kingsman]

To add further fuel to the fire, although not directly affecting Shermans but might affect late production Sextons, it has been said that Canada adopted US OD in Jan 44 rather than UK SCC15 for simplicity of supply.  But I'm not sure there is any incontovertible evidence for this.

 

I can't see mix and match SCC2 and OD painting in mid-42 to early 44, although I can see Khaki Green 3 and OD before this as they were broadly similar.  Not that we had very many US vehicles before SCC2 came into use anyway.  But once SCC15 came into use I can see that any available "green" would have been used for patch-painting at unit level.  Depots may have been a little more regimented but what was the priority?  Out of the gate or sitting on the vehicle park waiting for a can of the exctly matching paint?

 

Something I forgot to mention earlier is wading gear.  All wading trunks and other wading parts were apparently finished in SCC15.  So if your Sherman is to be fitted with any of the wading trunking that will definitely be SCC15.  Even the few lingering SCC2 vehicles such as RMASG Centaurs had SCC15 wading gear.  I therefore imagine that the relocated 17pdr travel lock brackets to accommodate the wading trunking would be SCC15 regardless, as would the other hull rear wading fittings like the bracing strut brackets, mounting flanges and the bracing bracket on the turret to rear.  If you have the RFM Firefly you might want to know which parts to use for a wading-equipped or non-wading tank.  The instructions are entirely unclear.  I have some annotated photos.

 

Back in the room, I use that Bovington M4A1/Sherman IIA as an example of what OD No9 should look like as  - to my eye at least - it looks "about right" despite being a recent repaint.

 

BUT  - he says, opening a new can of kerosene to lob onto the conflagration - I spotted these paint layers on M4A1 Michael's wheels at Bovington after the tank was moved earlier this year.  They must have been behind the bogie arms before.  The wheels are not original to the tank, which originally had open-spoke wheels.  Pressed-spoke wheels of this Chrysler design were used by other factories but my bet would be that they came from an M4A4.  The very brownish colour appears to be factory-original OD as there is nothing under this except bare metal.  And it is very brown - although it appears less brown in the close-up, taken at the same time with the same device.  The vibrant green is a post-war repaint in its current Deep Bronze Green.  But under this there is a smidge of what I believe to be SCC15 showing just above the top of the hub.  Assuming that analysis to be correct, although I have no idea how the colours might have alterered after decades under other layers, they are very different colours and I can't see patch repainting with such contrast being acceptable.  But it does hint at the wheels having been repainted in SCC15 at some point.  But was that on the original donor tank or on a previous Michael repaint, leaving the unpainted original colour area?  Circling us back to possible full repaint of conversions.

 

   

[JackG]

If anyone has the Sherman Firefly publication by Peter Brown, there are a few interesting photos that show some high contrast.  It appears to be more about new additions added to a grubby tank as seen on page 7.   Another image on page 9 has a Firefly Ic being prepped with water proofing.   Again the vehicle is entirely weathered in dust such that it is difficult to tell if the dark areas are the rubber compound or surfaces of the vehicle wiped clean before application - probably a combination of both.   

[zigster]

MY option was SCC15 on turret & and front glacis (due to steel plate over the gunner) on early models.

Then more SCC15 due to maintenance, repairs etc, as war progressed.

That's how (I reckon) there are so many photos with over painted T-numbers.

z

[thebig-bear]

On 19/09/2023 at 08:51, Kingsman said:

Something I forgot to mention earlier is wading gear.  All wading trunks and other wading parts were apparently finished in SCC15.  So if your Sherman is to be fitted with any of the wading trunking that will definitely be SCC15.  Even the few lingering SCC2 vehicles such as RMASG Centaurs had SCC15 wading gear. 

Not necessarily. As often seems the case, at least where British manufactured equipment was concerned, old stock was being used up. The IWM colour film of Churchill AVREs and Sherman Crabs being loaded onto landing craft for D-Day clearly shows at least one SCC15 AVRE with SCC2 (or even possibly KG no 3) wading gear. After all, no one was likely to repaint a piece of what was, ultimately, disposable equipment.

Edited March 23 by thebig-bear