Jump to content

short stirling with us markings


brewerjerry

Recommended Posts

Hi

    curious if anything new has come up on this

 

  in bombing colours 1937-1973 on page 156

 

bowyer notes he recorded sering on 24 july 1943 a stirling with us markings on the fuselage 

 

  anyone seen any new info 

     cheers

        jerry 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi

   interesting

    i haven't seen that photo before

    a few years later from the one bowyer recorded he saw 1943

 

   as LK615 wasn't built until 1944

 

   cheers 

      jerry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you able to share the Bowyer pic, or would this breach copyright perhaps?

 

The above pic is supposedly in Russian service although the star on the fuselage does look rather odd or 'enhanced' in some way, but still not what I'd expect a US star to look like.

 

Not much help I'm afraid as my limited books on the Stirling show no example in US markings, but quite a few in Luftwaffe guise!

 

Did briefly think it could have been the aborted Mk.II with wright-cyclone engines that were to be built in Canada but it seems that other than a few adapted prototypes none ever flew operationally.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful but I can't think of a reason why the US would adopt a single example of an average aircraft when better UK designs were available (Halifax and Lancaster).

 

Pat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a thought, why not contact Mark Postlethwaite of Wingleader books fame as they have published a very detailed book on the Stirling so they will have done some pretty extensive research into the subject.

 

I know Mark does read this forum so he may also pick this up as well.

 

Pat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi

     there is no photo in the book by bowyer, only text

 

   my random thought was if it was something to do with parachute training ? 

  other thought was 100 group ECM but i think that is to early ? 

or supply dropping in europe ? 

 

    cheers

        jerry

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, PatG said:

The above pic is supposedly in Russian service although the star on the fuselage does look rather odd or 'enhanced' in some way, but still not what I'd expect a US star to look like.

Pat.

That looks like a pre summer of `42 US insignia with an extra helping of the blue around the star.  There would have been a red circle in the middle of the white star and that looks like what it has.  Maybe somebody had the idea to slap some old style US insignias on it before sending it to the Soviets? 

Later,

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If LK615 is this one being referred to it never went anywhere near the US. The picture above is of such poor quality the stars could be anything.

 

From " The Stirling Story ", by Bowyer

Stirling LK618 was flown to USSR Jan 4, 1945. It suffered a flying accident on the 14th when the ASI went unserviceable during takeoff and the undercarriage collapsed during remedial action. LK615 was sent to replace it on Feb 28. It flew from Melton Mowbray and was delivered via Shaibah and Teheran, arriving in mid March.

Mk.III LK615 was shown to the Soviet Acceptance. Commissioned on 1 March, 1945, it was rejected as incomplete. It received attention at RAF Habbaniya before handover at Tehran in summer 1945. Flight tested at L11 NKAP ( Flight Test Institute of the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry ) by G M Shiyanov, he considered it far more difficult to handle than the B17/24 tested at L11 Zhukovsky ( Kratovo ). The Soviet Air Force never tested it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whilst Mr Bowyer produced many fine books a single reference/observation/theory without any supporting evidence would suggest that perhaps on this occasion he may have been a little wide of the mark.

 

Again I can see no logic in a single example of a rather average type being adopted by the US when other far more suitable and available aircraft could have been chosen, for what ever purpose they had in mind.

 

Of course sods law means someone will now come up with a photo or evidence to prove me completely wrong, but in the interim I gently suggest it should be considered to be somewhat erroneous!

 

Pat.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, e8n2 said:

That looks like a pre summer of `42 US insignia with an extra helping of the blue around the star.  There would have been a red circle in the middle of the white star and that looks like what it has. 

Or we're looking at overexposure of the white borders of the Soviet insignia, and any resemblance to what would have been an anachronistic marking is just a matter of distortion.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the records so far show that this is not an example adopted by the US but far more likely to be one of those that the Soviets received and subsequently decided not to pursue.

 

As to how the Soviet star was represented and appears in these low res photos seems unusual but nothing more than that IMHO.

 

Pat.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone considered that the Stirling was painted up for a film. Maybe not having a US bomber available a type not known to the Soviet public was chosen to represent one

There are numerous examples from all countries of painting up types to represent 'enemy' or even 'friendly' aeroplanes

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Has anyone considered that the Stirling was painted up for a film. Maybe not having a US bomber available a type not known to the Soviet public was chosen to represent one

There are numerous examples from all countries of painting up types to represent 'enemy' or even 'friendly' aeroplanes

The Russians only flew the Stirling somewhere in the area of 3-6 times and concluded it was a rather poor and difficult aircraft, noting that the 'best' aspect of it was of all things it's flaps.
The intention behind sending the Stirling to Russia was to enquire about the possibility of selling off a modest portion of the remaining fleet at wars end instead of paying to gather the aircraft and have them scrapped. Russia quickly rejected that possibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Has anyone considered that the Stirling was painted up for a film. Maybe not having a US bomber available a type not known to the Soviet public was chosen to represent one

There are numerous examples from all countries of painting up types to represent 'enemy' or even 'friendly' aeroplanes

Hi

     could well be as bowyers recorded sighting i think is to early for the 'russian' one 

 

    with bowyers experience i am sure he would recognise what type of marking was on the stirling and record it correctly 

 

     cheers

        jerry 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't doubt Bowyers expertise but this has all the hall marks of being a spurious observation without any actual back-up or evidence what so ever.

 

So best to put it to bed I think until something factual is uncovered as the likelihood of a single Stirling being used by the US is at best fanciful!

 

Pat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi

 

hence my first line in my starting post 

 

 "  curious if anything new has come up on this  "  

 

  so i will try again in a few years 

 

     cheers

       jerry

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Has anyone considered that the Stirling was painted up for a film. Maybe not having a US bomber available a type not known to the Soviet public was chosen to represent one

There are numerous examples from all countries of painting up types to represent 'enemy' or even 'friendly' aeroplanes

That makes a lot more sense to me than blaming the resolution of the picture or alleged overexposure of the white surround on Soviet stars. 

Later,

Dave

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, PatG said:

I don't doubt Bowyers expertise but this has all the hall marks of being a spurious observation without any actual back-up or evidence what so ever.

 

So best to put it to bed I think until something factual is uncovered as the likelihood of a single Stirling being used by the US is at best fanciful!

 

Pat.

So "Nothing to see here, move along & go back to your homes folks"

Were you a policeman in a previous life pat? <_<

Steve.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, PatG said:

Again I can see no logic in a single example of a rather average type being adopted by the US when other far more suitable and available aircraft could have been chosen, for what ever purpose they had in mind.

What if the purpose they had in mind was "let's see what this Stirling is like"? 

The supply and evaluation of single or small-numbers examples of aircraft for evaluation and test is hardly unusual

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what Mr Bowyer actually wrote.

 

"Of all the Stirlings I recorded in 1943 the most unusual was surely that seen on the evening of July 24 in the usual British camouflage, but with USAAF 'star and bar' markings on the fuselage side. She wore only a white star with white bars flanking it, and seems to have escaped full identification."

 

This doesn't sound like a spurious observation to me. 

 

In his book 'The Stirling Story' published by Crecy in 2001, Mr Bowyer gave a summary of the Form 78s for each individual Stirling. Someone with the book, more time and more patience than I have could try combing through the listings to see if anything is noted there. 

 

I have an idea that the actual Form 78s are available to view online, but the name of the site escapes me.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope, I worked for BT for over 33 years, sadly!

 

Still can't see any logic behind the US adopting a distinctly bang average single airframe from the UK when both them and us had much better ones to choose from if they had a very specific need in mind.

 

This still makes no sense to me and remains erroneous, but perhaps at some future point someone will come up with some definitive information to prove me wrong?

 

Pat.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...