Newby requiring some help please regards wartime traffic

[Mancunian airman]

I'm usually a everything RAF type of builder but I'm researching an airfield that was served with a platform for delivering bombs direct to the site.

I intend to build a 'layout' approx 4ft long with numerous wagons and some RAF vehicle by way of an illustration of the set-up . . . shunt to unload basically

 

Questions:

In 1944 on the LNER line so what colour would the rolling stock be ?

That is open 5/7 planks wagons, some box wagons and possibly some war-flats for carrying the large 4000 Ibs bombs or

Would they be usual flat wagons with a low dropside ??

 

Was there a standard height for the bed of the wagons ? I have to build a platform  . . .

 

I'm thinking that they probably used an '0-6' or a J27  . .  so I am told ??

 I presume they will be austerity Black with just the letters 'N E' on all the railway wagons & train ??

Or - Could it be mixed wagons, using what was available ?

 

I have a series of books out lining the history of LNER but no wartime pics are shown

 

Any help will be gratefully received, hopefully to keep the interest going  . .. 

regards 

Ian 

[Circloy]

Prior to the war goods trains would include a mix of wagons from various owners LMS, LNER, GWR, SR & Private Owners regardless of who owned the line the train was on. During the war more mixing occured as general goods wagons, such as opens, were 'pooled' and the requirement for 'foreign' wagons to head for home territory when empty was replaced by a need to use the first available wagon for the next available load. So don't get fixated on all wagons being LNER wagons.

 

Wagon liveries is a complex subject however if you bear in mind that the majority of wagons during the war were not fitted with automatic brakes then the livery become much simplified in that 3 of the 4 railway companies used grey with large white letters signifying ownership NE (LNER), GW(GWR) & LMS. SR wagons were brown and Private Owner wagons were more elaborate. Do a Bing image search to see the variations. Don't worry about depicting unfitted wagons it was a lot more common than you'd believe.

 

Flat's - forget them a standard open could carry 5 or 6 of the 4000lb bombs you mention and flats were more useful carrying more specialised items.

 

Box wagon, 1 or maybe two for the fuzes. Again in grey livery.

 

Consider including a crane to assist in the unloading.

 

Floor height of wagons would be around 3 ft  to 3 ft 3 in above rail level, platform height about 3 ft.

 

Difficult to advise on the possible loco type without knowing the whereabout of the airfield. Engines tended not to wander far from their origin, thinking GER (East Anglia), GNR (Lincs), GCR (north Lincs) or NER (east Yorks) types all possibilities along with LNER standards. A 0-6-0 (J##) would be more suitable for shunting than a large 2-8-0 (O##). Livery plain black, lettered most likely NE.

 

Have a search on the net for "Soham rail disaster" some of the reports contain quite deatiled info on munition trains

[Mancunian airman]

I think that very useful information.

I am in N.E. Lincolnshire (LNER territory)  so yes N E wagons with a mix thrown in. I also have a Jinty 3F for the use of. 

I have three box wagons so will be giving them a grey coat, along with the open 12 ton wagons

As for a crane, I intend to convert an Airfix  AEC refueller to a crane vehicle , I also have a Brake wagon for the back end, Would that be kept as a brown wooden body ??

 

The transcript I have said that the siding was to hold up to 50 wagons but I'm going with about 15, purely for an illustrative purposes

 

What was the separation between track on a two track main line please ?? . ..

 

Thanks for the help

rgds 

Ian 

[Bonhoff]

In the region of 6' - 6'6" between rails

 

http://igg.org.uk/rail/2-track/02track3.htm

 

IanJ 

[Circloy]

2 hours ago, Mancunian airman said:

I think that very useful information.

I am in N.E. Lincolnshire (LNER territory)  so yes N E wagons with a mix thrown in. I also have a Jinty 3F for the use of. 

I have three box wagons so will be giving them a grey coat, along with the open 12 ton wagons

As for a crane, I intend to convert an Airfix  AEC refueller to a crane vehicle , I also have a Brake wagon for the back end, Would that be kept as a brown wooden body ??

 

The transcript I have said that the siding was to hold up to 50 wagons but I'm going with about 15, purely for an illustrative purposes

 

What was the separation between track on a two track main line please ?? . ..

 

Thanks for the help

rgds 

Ian 

Unfortunately the Jinty was an LMS engine which would not normally be seen this far into LNER territory. That said  it's your layout and Rule 1 always applies - "It's my Railway & I'll run what I want". Some creditbility can be retained as at the beginning of hostilities the war department declared these would be the standard shunting engine and were loaned a few at the begining of hostilities. See here for brief details. There was a change in what would become the standard shunting loco but yours could be a Jinty that either escaped being sent to France or was found to be useful and its whereabouts 'lost' in the paperwork.

 

I'll see if I can turn up some livery details.

 

Regarding the brake van, again more likely grey than brown but brown would not be implausable. (Brown signifies the van would be fitted with vaccum brakes, in this case they would be none operational and the hand brake only used replicating how a grey unfitted brake van would be used).

 

For clearances this diagram gives all you need.   clearances  However if you want to include points then the track centre distances will depend on the manufacturer of the track (Peco, Hornby etc)

 

[Seahawk]

Given the geographical setting, the sort of locomotive that immediately leaps to my mind would be one of the various ancient ex-Great Eastern 0-6-0Ts eg classes J66/67/68/69 or maybe even a J15 0-6-0 tender engine (also GER, also antiquated).  But, as the man said, "It's my railway and I run what I want."

[Circloy]

3 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Given the geographical setting, the sort of locomotive that immediately leaps to my mind would be one of the various ancient ex-Great Eastern 0-6-0Ts eg classes J66/67/68/69 or maybe even a J15 0-6-0 tender engine (also GER, also antiquated).  But, as the man said, "It's my railway and I run what I want."

Fine for the GER who's territory was London, Peterborough, Boston & East Anglia however the OP referenced Lincolnshire which was either GNR (Peterborough, Doncaster, Lincoln, Grimsby & Boston) where eithe a

J39 tender loco or J50 tank loco would be more common, or GCR (Doncaster, Lincoln, Grimsby & Scunthorpe) where J11 tender loco would prevail.  Of course the WD Austerity 0-6-0 saddle tank loco (later LNER J94) began to appear in 1943 this is available redy to run or for a static layout the old Kitmaster/airfix plastic kits appear fom time to time on a certain website.

 

If sticking with the Jinty then 8 were used by the WD (No.s 11-18) from March 1940. All were sent to France with a further 6 (WD numbers 19-24) were prepared but not used.

 

I've not turned up any specific livery details but it appears loco's requisitioned from the mainline comanies were painted a 'khaki green' which can be interpreted many ways. @Mike Starmer may be able to assist.

[Paul821]

As @Mancunian airman indicates in his opening post there are very few pictures of "bomb trains". The key book for LNER Wartime traffic is "BY RAIL TO VICTORY THE STORY OF THE L. N. E. R IN WARTIME" by Norman Crump. Nearly all pictures just shown bombs being carried in "normal" open wagons as there was very little wagon building during the war years. Due to pooling wagons from all the companies could be seen anywhere. Colliery wagon were still used for the transport of coal. so were more rarely seen on other traffic.

 

In his  opening post  @Mancunian airman says he has researched a  particular airfield, if he could name that airfield it would help with suggesting locomotives, as many lines serving airfields had route availability limitations. In reality very few airfields has direct delivery of bombs via trains as the RAF had an efficient system of "Air Ammunition Parks" which were served by rail with forward onward distribution by road. There is a reasonable summary on Wikipedia 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_munitions_storage_during_World_War_II , there are other, more scholarly accounts available. All of bomber command was served from Barnham in Suffolk. Local sidings were more commonly used for other provisions, including food.

 

 

 

 

[Mancunian airman]

I thank you Paul for the info. 

I am trying to get a copy of the book you quoted.

The RAF station was at North Killingholme, bombs delivered to the purpose built sidings provided bombs for two other RAF stations; It opened  late 1944.

cheers 

Ian 

 

PS Book now order via IBAY  . .

Edited June 6, 2023 by Mancunian airman
Additional PS info

[Seahawk]

21 hours ago, Circloy said:

Fine for the GER who's territory was London, Peterborough, Boston & East Anglia however the OP referenced Lincolnshire which was either GNR (Peterborough, Doncaster, Lincoln, Grimsby & Boston) where eithe a

J39 tender loco or J50 tank loco would be more common, or GCR (Doncaster, Lincoln, Grimsby & Scunthorpe) where J11 tender loco would prevail. 

 

Note to self: read the exam question carefully first.

[Circloy]

58 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

 

Note to self: read the exam question carefully first.

We all do it

[Paul821]

Thanks for the Info that you are basing this on North Killingholme. My own area of interest is the WW2 era in East Anglia so my resources regarding Lincolnshire are few:

 

The very rare book "Wings on Rails", which is a comprehensive gazetteer of RAF logistics does not mention North Killingholme, but your own research shows that there were sidings installed at this location. However lack of an entry does mean that it is fairly certain that there were no locomotives based at the site.

 

As North Killingholme is very close to Immingham, this has three implications:

1) By May 1944 this was the major port for the import of bombs into the UK as it had good rail links to most of the sites where bombs were stored.

2) The Airfield was next to an ex  Great Central line, as it still is,

3) Some of the loco's would have been based at Immingham shed, the useful website https://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&action=list gives a snapshot allocation for Immingham in May 1944 as being of loco's type: O4's (2-8-0) of various sub types and J11 (0-6-0) .This not a comprehensive list but based on observations around the time. Additional types of loco would have served Immingham from depots such as March, but these wold have been large 2-8-0 types.

Both the J11 and O2 have been available as 1:76 (OO) models but both are rather dear for use on a static layout. As loco's would only have been present for 20 minutes of so, and uploading would not have taken place at the time, you could dispense with them.

 

In addition signals would be an important part of the infrastructure, and possibly a signal box 

 

The following websites might help you..

;

http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/railways.htm

 

http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/home.php

 

For anyone interested in the more general topic of railways in conflict the MRSG is worth joining:

 

https://www.mrsg.org.uk/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rob Pulham]

On 01/06/2023 at 21:43, Circloy said:

Regarding the brake van, again more likely grey than brown but brown would not be implausable. (Brown signifies the van would be fitted with vaccum brakes, in this case they would be none operational and the hand brake only used replicating how a grey unfitted brake van would be used).

 

 

The LNER painted all their brake vans brown, irrespective of whether they were fitted or not.

 

Goods stock lettering style changed in 1937 from large NE on the wagon sides to small NE low down at the left hand end. But wagons were not shopped and repainted very often, so there would have been a mixture of styles during the war.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Rob Pulham
To add more detail.

[Mjwomack]

As others has said, photos are few and far between, here's my contribution which is of limited direct help...

 

 

It's from the Middleton Press book on the Waveney Valley line (Tivesthall to Beccles) so it's the Suffolk/ Norfolk border - a bit south for you but at least part of the LNER. Also it's servicing an American base.

Putting that to one side, it does show the use of open wagons on the railway, a mobile military crane being used and the unloading being conducted my military rather than railway staff. I'd chance it that you could take those as precedents for using an RAF crane (that'll be the good old Airfix set😉) and personal from the same supplier

[Paul821]

Nice photo and one I have not seen before, I need to get a copy for my collection. However Earsham was a bomb dump rather that an airfield. See https://www.americanairmuseum.com/archive/place/earsham

 

As I have mentioned before most sidings handling bomb traffic during WW2 served large bomb dumps rather than individual airfields nearly all the USAAF bases were served by two such dumps: Earsham and Bures.

 

As to cranes there are pictures around, I don't have one to hand of the USAAF using RAF Cole's cranes.

 

I have now reserved a copy of the book from Essex Libraries

[Mjwomack]

11 hours ago, Paul821 said:

I have now reserved a copy of the book from Essex Libraries

Libraries with the books? How quaint! Our's seem to be all. e-books and gizmos that aren't compatible!!

 

Meanwhile, if @Mancunian airman has a library with books, try to get hold of 

Tatlow, Peter A pictorial record of LNER wagons Pub OPC

 

It's got lots of pictures! and diagrams of the wagons for 'our' part of the country along with potted histories. For those with a copy already, flick to page 168 or plate 140 if the pages changed and a picture of a RAF gas bottle trolley atop a single plank wagon!

 

Plenty of wagon kits around, try the Parkside Dundas range, think they're now marketed as Peco, though if you're happy with 'illustrative purposes only' there's all sorts of bargains to be had.

[Mancunian airman]

Thank you all for the information and links to further reading.

 

As Paul suggested the book by Norman Crumb, I am pleased to say that I have obtained a copy. Lots of useful information although nothing concerning Killingholme airfield directly but there is reference to both Immingham & Grimsby sites. 

 

 

regards to all

Ian 

[Paul821]

1 hour ago, Mjwomack said:

Libraries with the books? How quaint! Our's seem to be all. e-books and gizmos that aren't compatible!!

Getting OT

 

Living on the Essex/Suffolk border I did take the opportunity to join Suffolk libraries but as you say, apart from a local history section which was reference only, the actual number of books available for loan was limited.

 

Essex were going down a similar route of mainly voluntary libraries but after much opposition they dropped that idea and entered into a consortium with other local authorities and a very efficient system of inter library lending. Therefore they only tend to have one copy of many books but if you order it on line, it's delivered within a few days of it becoming available, to your chosen local library. Looking at the number of books that have been ordered in our, very small, library it seems very well used.

 

Also although the hours libraries were open were cut every library seems to have been given one evening opening session.

 

Back OT

 

Following @Mjwomack illustration from a MIddleton book, I have no knowldge of the lines around Immingahm but this book, alos from Middleton may have some details of use to @Mancunian airman

 

https://www.middletonpress.co.uk/books/railways/branch-lines/branch-lines-north-of-grimsby.html