T-55k command tank - turret photos needed

[badger]

Hi all,

 

Whilst I'm not doing much modelling at present I am researching a number of future builds.

One of these is a T-55AK command tank with the large turret mounted aerial. I know Skif make a kit, but I also know it has a lot of issues so I'm planning on using a Tamiya one I got cheap instead.

 

I'll upgrade the wheels and tracks with Miniart ones and have a Voyager etch set plus some other bits for it.

 

The main issue I've come across is figuring out how the large antenna fits when in use (I'd like to show it deployed) and how it is stored when not in use.

 

None of my books show this (I have a pretty comprehensive library) and numerous internet searches over several months have brought up much.

 

Hoping someone can help? Maybe @Old pro?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Ben

[Old pro]

28 minutes ago, badger said:

Hi all,

 

Whilst I'm not doing much modelling at present I am researching a number of future builds.

One of these is a T-55AK command tank with the large turret mounted aerial. I know Skif make a kit, but I also know it has a lot of issues so I'm planning on using a Tamiya one I got cheap instead.

 

I'll upgrade the wheels and tracks with Miniart ones and have a Voyager etch set plus some other bits for it.

 

The main issue I've come across is figuring out how the large antenna fits when in use (I'd like to show it deployed) and how it is stored when not in use.

 

None of my books show this (I have a pretty comprehensive library) and numerous internet searches over several months have brought up much.

 

Hoping someone can help? Maybe @Old pro?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Ben

That’s a rare beast, and very few photos as most changes were internal with the only addition externally being the mast. This link has a couple of pictures of it https://www.armedconflicts.com/CZK-T-55AK-velitelsky-tank-t40540

there is a picture with its snorkel deployed a bit further down.

[Kingsman]

Note that the Tamiya T-55 is a hotch-potch mixed-up T-55/T-55A hybrid that doesn't really reflect any of the T-55 family models correctly.  The Takom and Miniart T-55s are very much better.  The Skif kit is very poor.  Replacing the wheels solves the wrong front wheel hub issue. 

 

The kit also doesn't reflect the Czech build standard, noting that the Czechs did not transition to the T-55A but continued with the T-55 to the end of production - although with modifications.  The rear vents are the wrong shape for Czech, for a start.  Blast Models used to do a nice Czech deck set and a general correction set for this kit, but I suspect they are long OOP.  But by the time you might buy the Blast sets, Minart wheels and tracks you have well exceeded the price of a Miniart Czech production kit.  All can benefit from a metal gun barrel.

[badger]

Thanks for the rapid input and links - much appreciated.

 

The intention is to model a Soviet tank as I have a fair few Czech ones already and whilst the Tamiya one is a mishmash I believe its closer to a Soviet production than Czech.

 

I picked the Tamiya up very cheap, and it came with a huge pile of aftermarket bits and pieces including a metal barrel, aber etch, tow cables and a resin mantlet. 

 

29 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

Replacing the wheels solves the wrong front wheel hub issue. 

I picked this up from a previous post you made some years ago and have replaced the wheels on all my Tamiya builds to correct this (and the tyre seams are correctly raised on the Miniart ones as well).

 

I'll use a set of the Miniart instructions to help correct as I go although all in all it probably would have been better to start with a Miniart kit as they are far superior to the Tamiya one. I have almost a dozen of them and whilst they are, in my opinion, an intimidating build due to the number of parts they do look superb when built up.

 

I quite like kitbashing so am interested to see what I can make from the Tamiya one.

 

I assume the 10 metre aerial fits on the standard mount, as from the photos it seems to be in front of the commanders position?

 

It is my intention to show it deployed to its full height and braced as I think this would make an eye catching model.

 

Thanks again for the assistance

 

 

 

[badger]

Looking at the skif instructions this shows a control box that fits onto the standard aerial mount and the mast fitting between the hatches (on top of the radiation armour patch!).

The two are then joined with a ladder type aerial(?)

 

This doesn't seem to match what I can see in the photos.

 

There is also no case for the antenna rods on the turret roof

 

Is this a figment of Skiffs imagination?

 

 

 

[Old pro]

1 hour ago, badger said:

Looking at the skif instructions this shows a control box that fits onto the standard aerial mount and the mast fitting between the hatches (on top of the radiation armour patch!).

The two are then joined with a ladder type aerial(?)

 

This doesn't seem to match what I can see in the photos.

 

There is also no case for the antenna rods on the turret roof

 

Is this a figment of Skiffs imagination?

 

 

 

I suspect (but don’t know for certain) that the Skif set up also includes a HF antenna ( the ladder part) and that the extra equipment is associated with that, a normal VHF wouldn’t necessarily require anything extra, HF radios required a specific antenna length so the ladder and extra box is possibly a way of electronically lengthening and shortening the antenna depending on the frequency.

[badger]

41 minutes ago, Old pro said:

I suspect (but don’t know for certain) that the Skif set up also includes a HF antenna ( the ladder part) and that the extra equipment is associated with that.

Thank you - that sounds entirely possible to me, although I have little knowledge of radio operations.

 

I'll keep looking around as the build is not one I plan on starting for a bit but in the absence of further information I'll probably work from the photo of the tamk with the deployed antenna.

[Old pro]

I case you were wondering, this is the mast attachment point, although this is a T 62K the points should be the same.

I have years of military radio experience which is why I suspect it is a HF and not a VHF set up in Skifs instructions, a VHF would be like in the photo, just a mast with an antenna on top and a cable running to the tank.

Bearing in mind Soviet doctrine was to have tanks with a single radio set, on receive only, the command tank would have two, one to receive from higher command and one to relay to the troops.

[badger]

15 minutes ago, Old pro said:

I case you were wondering, this is the mast attachment point, although this is a T 62K the points should be the same.

I assume this is the attachment point on the T-55 turret.

 

As there seems to be a matching attachment point on the left end of the case would this form the base of the mast?

[badger]

I also presume that this would then attach to the standard aerial mount somehow to link to the radios?

[Old pro]

3 hours ago, badger said:

I also presume that this would then attach to the standard aerial mount somehow to link to the radios?

Yes there should be a small connector at the base of the vehicle antenna mount.

This is going to get more complicated real quick, Skif use the same antenna scheme on all their command tanks (which is annoying) that said this is a manual picture

i have no idea what the key refers to but you can see the ladder! That said, early radios operated at a very low frequency (by western standards) the R113 operated in the 20-22MHz frequency range, not exactly HF but low VHF which could have necessitated the ladder antenna, the R123 operate in the higher VHF band 30-51.5 MHz and with higher power 30W (British only used 15W and higher power only in an emergency) which could explain why photos never show the ladder type, the R 123 came into use in 1965, reportedly a 50km range for a 4m whip antenna and a whopping 350km for the 10m mast for the R113 that range drops significantly for the R123 to around 50km, if you got 50km with a UK set on a mast you were doing well or at the top of a mountain!

i would say if you are modelling an early tank with the R113 you need the ladder for the R123 not so much.

[badger]

58 minutes ago, Old pro said:

i would say if you are modelling an early tank with the R113 you need the ladder for the R123 not so much.

Fantastic - thank you so much!! That diagram is exactly what I hoped to find!

 

If it helps I'm going for a later vehicle (mid 70s) as I have the later RMSh tracks (I notice Skif have similar on the box art but with the ladder!)

 

Currently I think I'll stick with just the mast as I think I have all the mountings and connections for this figured out now. 

 

If I do decide to use the ladder, I presume this necessitates the "control box" Skif supply, but I have no idea where this mounts on the turret, although it could be item 11 in the above diagram which seems to fit onto the regular antenna mount.

 

 

 

[Old pro]

17 minutes ago, badger said:

Fantastic - thank you so much!! That diagram is exactly what I hoped to find!

 

If it helps I'm going for a later vehicle (mid 70s) as I have the later RMSh tracks (I notice Skif have similar on the box art but with the ladder!)

 

Currently I think I'll stick with just the mast as I think I have all the mountings and connections for this figured out now. 

 

If I do decide to use the ladder, I presume this necessitates the "control box" Skif supply, but I have no idea where this mounts on the turret, although it could be item 11 in the above diagram which seems to fit onto the regular antenna mount.

 

 

 

Yeah, item 11 seems to sit on top of the vehicle antenna mount with a cable to the base. Here is a T 64AK, again a grainy photo that doesn’t show much detail but the set up is similar.

T 64K, AK and T 72K, AK, BK are easier to spot because there are differences to normal tanks, the T 54, 55, 62 the only real external difference is the attachment point for the mast, the mast itself could be carried on the roof or under the rear fuel drums making it harder to spot.

[badger]

Again fantastic - thank you.

 

Getting home I checked my copy of the Skif instructions which to my amazement matches the manual diagram quite closely.

 

It also confirms that the control box is item 11 and mounted on the aerial base. This is considerably different than the box art which has it on a seperate pole

[badger]

I am wondering if I am seeing two different versions of the command tank. Various sources state there were versions of the command tank for battalion / company commanders (with two radios) and a different version for a regimental commander (which is listed as having a mast, generator and possibly 3 radios (sources differ a bit here))

 

This diagram also printed in Sewell and Kinnears book, purportedly from the manual,

 

matches the one full photo

 

and turret top photo from the website linked above. 

 

On all of these the longer aerial seems to be fitted to the standard mount just in front of the commanders position.

 

I surmise this is the battalion commanders version.

 

The Skif instructions and diagram posted above have the control box for the ladder section here, so the mast must be mounted elsewhere.

 

I highlighted a fitting in blue above that I thought might be it, but I have now spotted this on a number of photos of non-command tanks so I doubt this now.

 

 

The T-64 has the mast mounted almost between the hatches, which logically seems a more stable position for a tall mast.

 

Assuming Skif are correct in their location, then this would correspond to where the antenna case is attached in the turret top photo. Skif mount this case (I assume its that) on the turret rear.

I therefore surmise this is regimental commanders version.

 

I could be, and probably are, wrong but I sadistically rather enjoy puzzling these things out and going into deep research for my builds.

[Old pro]

15 hours ago, badger said:

I am wondering if I am seeing two different versions of the command tank. Various sources state there were versions of the command tank for battalion / company commanders (with two radios) and a different version for a regimental commander (which is listed as having a mast, generator and possibly 3 radios (sources differ a bit here))

 

This diagram also printed in Sewell and Kinnears book, purportedly from the manual,

 

matches the one full photo

 

and turret top photo from the website linked above. 

 

On all of these the longer aerial seems to be fitted to the standard mount just in front of the commanders position.

 

I surmise this is the battalion commanders version.

 

The Skif instructions and diagram posted above have the control box for the ladder section here, so the mast must be mounted elsewhere.

 

I highlighted a fitting in blue above that I thought might be it, but I have now spotted this on a number of photos of non-command tanks so I doubt this now.

 

 

The T-64 has the mast mounted almost between the hatches, which logically seems a more stable position for a tall mast.

 

Assuming Skif are correct in their location, then this would correspond to where the antenna case is attached in the turret top photo. Skif mount this case (I assume its that) on the turret rear.

I therefore surmise this is regimental commanders version.

 

I could be, and probably are, wrong but I sadistically rather enjoy puzzling these things out and going into deep research for my builds.

It’s certainly a conundrum, command tanks barely get a mention in any literature let alone a photo! Skif put their mast in the same position for all 3 of their command tanks T 55, T 64 and T 80, the discrepancy to the photo attachment point could be as simple as not wanting to weld on the anti radiation cladding on the T 55, the mast base only needs to be secure to stop it moving and it is the guy ropes that hold it in place, so the position on the tank is irrelevant as long as it is near the whip antenna mount (hence why it is probably between the hatches on the T 64K as the whip antenna mounts are just in front and behind the commanders hatch.

yes there are supposedly 2 variants of the command tank but only differ internally, placement of the mast holder, Skif maybe correct on this at the rear of the turret, the photo seems to be a Czech tank and East German had them at the rear under the fuel drums (as did supposedly the Russians later)

The only other thing I have is this photo from a T 64A manual, not the clearest on text, the T 54, 55 and 62 manuals I have don’t even mention the command variant let alone a photo or schematic.

i will look through the hundreds of photos I have later, I might have an unknown picture of a command tank (not with its mast raised, I already looked for that) in its travelling mode that might shed some light.

 

in some weird way, I enjoy little puzzles like this, not normally something that enters my thoughts 😂😂

[badger]

As always thanks for the continued interest and support.

 

It does surprise me there isn't more put there given that the T54/55 family has the highest production numbers of any tank, and the quoted figures for command tank production are into several hundred at least.

Then again, I oppose operational security would mean these tanks were rarely, if ever, photographed in use.

 

On a whim, and taking your advice to check photos, I decided to do a google search for "T-55 Commanders tank" which let me to a reddit post asking for help identifying this tank:

 

This is a Polish T-55 but interestingly it has what looks like an aerial case on the mudguard and a mount / flap arrangement on the turret roof I don't recognise.

[badger]

A google lenses search brings up the image is from a wikipedia article on martial law in Poland and is dated 13/12/1981

[badger]

The mount / flap item I mentioned above seems specific to Polish built tanks as I have found it on a few photos. Miniart show it on their Polish production kit and even Tamiya have it (part C11) but add it in the last stage without mentioning which variant it is for

[Old pro]

13 hours ago, badger said:

The mount / flap item I mentioned above seems specific to Polish built tanks as I have found it on a few photos. Miniart show it on their Polish production kit and even Tamiya have it (part C11) but add it in the last stage without mentioning which variant it is for

God that was annoying, you know when you know something but then doubt yourself so you have to check! 
The mount/flap thing is actually the holder for the drivers TVN 1 night vision scope, the front periscope is replaced, it is a fixture of most T 54/55 tanks but gets fitted all over the place, Polish and Czech and Yugoslav builds seem to have them mainly placed as in the photo as do some Russian tanks, other locations including the rear of the turret or the turret sides or not at all, some have the screw for fixing them but not the bracket in that position some hide the screw somewhere!

a popular opinion is the the antenna stowage is on the rear of Russian tanks, I am not 100% sure that is the antenna stowage in the photo of the polish tank (looks a little thin) compared to Russian stowage tubes.

[Old pro]

Here’s an interesting thought! Because there are various levels of command tanks that were used company, battalion, regiment etc, that not all carried the mast, the 4 metre whip would have been enough for lower levels (that’s larger than used on regular tanks about 1.5-2m) I say that, because I found this photo of a Finnish command, the whip is larger than a standard tank and seems to just fit on the normal antenna base also the rear stowage case is small as in the Polish tank above.

also has the flap on the rear of the turret😁

[badger]

Thanks for clearing up the flap issue - I couldn't find mention of it in any of my reference. Now I know to look for it, I've spotted it in a few different places.

 

I agree with the above idea - would make sense to me. I assume then, that the mast equipped tanks are the highest level of command, and consequently are a much rarer beast.

 

With regards to the mast case I shall probably go with mounting it as per the photo above, ie under the fuel drums.

 

The hunt continues ....................

[badger]

A quick check shows Finnish T-55s were from Soviet stock so case on the rear it is 👍

[Kingsman]

Is this an antenna case or the snorkel?  It's on the back of the Czech-built ex-NVA cut-away T-55 formerly on display at Bovington.  The protector bar is unusual, making me think that it might be an antenna case.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Kingsman
Saved too soon

[Old pro]

10 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Is this an antenna case or the snorkel?  It's on the back of the Czech-built ex-NVA cut-away T-55 formerly on display at Bovington.  The protector bar is unusual, making me think that it might be an antenna case.

 

 

That is a snorkel, indicative of a Czech built tank, the protective bar/bumper is an East German modification. Polish built tanks (as well as early Russian builds) also put the snorkel in this location although the casing is different (a simpler tube) early Russian builds also had it optional to be mounted on top or underneath the fuel drums.

early T 55s

An interesting photo of another Finnish T 55 showing a rear mounted tube that seems thinner than the normal snorkel.

an odd East German T 55 (with a lot of old and new features) seems to show a thinner tube mounted behind the bumper and in front of the snorkel, unfortunately it is a poor quality picture.

and just to throw in more confusion, here’s a T 55 with apparently 2 snorkels, is one being used as other stowage?.?