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1:48 Boulton Paul Defiant ASR Mk.I *FINISHED*


Dunny

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I can't help it.  Despite my instinct not to get involved I can't help myself

 

Looking at the 2 photos of BA-A  @Troy Smith and @dogsbody have included above I have an observation and  question.

 

Setting aside whether there is ortho film or whether filters were applied I observe that the rudder appears to have 3 shades on it with upper (lighter appearing colour) looking particularly bodged on.   Given that they are all on the same small surface it doesn't look to be a "trick of the light" does it?     So is it a rapid repair?  Or from a different airframe?  Or part of an experiment (if taken with the fuselage tone near the cockpit)?   Or just a mess because they needed paint but just applied what was easily to hand?

 

Sorry that was   5 questions .... :nerd:

 

Rob

 

 

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One thing to bear in mind is that the Defiants that went to ASR squadrons were all ex night fighters, and had to be repainted. Some of the airframes were ex AI fitted Defiants, and had the equipment removed but not the aerials, but there then came a follow up order to remove any remaining aerials and wiring, to prevent any chance of the enemy getting their hands on what was left of the AI Mk VI system. 

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I have still not got around to installing some software since my hard drive crashed at the beginning of the year so am unable to test some ideas specifically to this thread subject.   Dug this out from a couple years back posted on the Spitfire thread

 

pfWC8Gf.jpg

The yellow in the posted BA coded aircraft photos appears to be behaving normally like that of a panchromatic type film but some other filter other than blue is making the red centre darker than the blue.   Without further scrutinizing with photo software emulation I would not rule out orthochromatic just yet.   No doubt these photos  have been manipulated and their contrast dialed up either intentionally or as a  result of the copying process. 

 

 

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As the Defiant began to enter service in the ASR role with 275, 276 and 277 Squadron in May 1942, a Postagram dated 25 May 1942 from the Air Ministry to Fighter, Bomber, Coastal, Army Co-operation Commands; the Admiralty, War Office and so on stated that Defiant aircraft for the Air/Sea Rescue Service were to have the Temperate Sea Scheme on the upper surfaces and Sky on the under surfaces.

 

The roundels and fin markings were to be the same as those for Day Fighters but without the other special Fighter markings.

 

No mention was made of the colour of the code letters, but this Postagram was sent barely a month after the Postagram that introduced the new format National marking II, National marking III and the associated fin marking and changed the colour of the code letters carried by many aircraft.

 

From the end of April 1942, Day Fighters were to have Sky codes, Coastal Command aircraft with White sides and undersurfaces were to have Light Slate Grey codes and 

"All other operational aircraft and OTU aircraft excluding Fighter Command OTU Day Fighter aircraft-dull red."

 

Thus ASR Defiants were supposed to be finished in Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey on the upper surfaces, Sky on the under surfaces and to have carried Red code letters.

 

Given that the ASR Defiants were all repainted from the Night Fighter scheme, it would not surprise me if they were all finished in the 'B' Scheme as this was the Scheme shown in the simplified generic diagram for single engine aircraft that seems to have replaced the original handed Air Diagrams that were withdrawn from use late in 1941.

 

Yellow codes for ASR aircraft did not begin to appear until 1943 and came about as a result of the introduction of the Spitfire Mk.II on 277 Squadron. Permission was granted for both 276 and 277 Squadron to adopt Yellow letters on their Spitfires from 16 February 1943. Given that 277 Squadron retained some Defiants until May 1943, it might have been the case that some Defiants, such as N3398 BA-A did receive Yellow codes during the period Feb-May 1943. 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, JackG said:

I have still not got around to installing some software since my hard drive crashed at the beginning of the year so am unable to test some ideas specifically to this thread subject.   Dug this out from a couple years back posted on the Spitfire thread

 

pfWC8Gf.jpg

The yellow in the posted BA coded aircraft photos appears to be behaving normally like that of a panchromatic type film but some other filter other than blue is making the red centre darker than the blue.   Without further scrutinizing with photo software emulation I would not rule out orthochromatic just yet.   No doubt these photos  have been manipulated and their contrast dialed up either intentionally or as a  result of the copying process. 

 

 

Thanks very much for that Jack - it would certainly seem that the photos could mislead. My money is on an panchromatic film with a blue filter - could this also exaggerate the contrast of the TSS?

12 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

As the Defiant began to enter service in the ASR role with 275, 276 and 277 Squadron in May 1942, a Postagram dated 25 May 1942 from the Air Ministry to Fighter, Bomber, Coastal, Army Co-operation Commands; the Admiralty, War Office and so on stated that Defiant aircraft for the Air/Sea Rescue Service were to have the Temperate Sea Scheme on the upper surfaces and Sky on the under surfaces.

 

The roundels and fin markings were to be the same as those for Day Fighters but without the other special Fighter markings.

 

No mention was made of the colour of the code letters, but this Postagram was sent barely a month after the Postagram that introduced the new format National marking II, National marking III and the associated fin marking and changed the colour of the code letters carried by many aircraft.

 

From the end of April 1942, Day Fighters were to have Sky codes, Coastal Command aircraft with White sides and undersurfaces were to have Light Slate Grey codes and 

"All other operational aircraft and OTU aircraft excluding Fighter Command OTU Day Fighter aircraft-dull red."

 

Thus ASR Defiants were supposed to be finished in Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey on the upper surfaces, Sky on the under surfaces and to have carried Red code letters.

 

Given that the ASR Defiants were all repainted from the Night Fighter scheme, it would not surprise me if they were all finished in the 'B' Scheme as this was the Scheme shown in the simplified generic diagram for single engine aircraft that seems to have replaced the original handed Air Diagrams that were withdrawn from use late in 1941.

 

Yellow codes for ASR aircraft did not begin to appear until 1943 and came about as a result of the introduction of the Spitfire Mk.II on 277 Squadron. Permission was granted for both 276 and 277 Squadron to adopt Yellow letters on their Spitfires from 16 February 1943. Given that 277 Squadron retained some Defiants until May 1943, it might have been the case that some Defiants, such as N3398 BA-A did receive Yellow codes during the period Feb-May 1943. 

 

 

 

Thanks very much for that Paul - very informative! So given that we are talking about 277 Sqn in 1942 the light colours of the codes and spinner suggest Sky, although they could also have been Dark Red. So, with this in mind TSS in 'B' scheme with wavy demarcation and Sky codes and spinner is feasible and backed up by the (altered) photos of BA*A? Phew!!

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

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19 minutes ago, Dunny said:

Thanks very much for that Jack - it would certainly seem that the photos could mislead. My money is on a blue filter - could this also exaggerate the contrast of the TSS?

Thanks very much for that Paul - very informative! So given that we are talking about 277 Sqn in 1942 the light colours of the codes and spinner suggest Sky, although they could also have been Dark Red. So, with this in mind TSS in 'B' scheme with wavy demarcation and Sky codes and spinner is feasible and backed up by the (altered) photos of BA*A? Phew!!

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

I really would be very surprised if this was a blue filter. In b&w film they are very rarely used and most non-professionals wouldn't have one in their camera bag. They are essentially a special effects filter and theres no reason whoever took these photis would have one on. Blue also reduces contrast which doesn't seem to be the case here and darkens most colours - again, not obviously happening in those photos. The photo of the Mk.II prototype is surely ortho film and shows what happens to reds and blues which is consistent with the photos of the ASR Defiant. If its ortho then the codes are not yellow, so that's a circular argument but if it's ortho then the yellow on the roundel is either over-painted or too thin to stand up to multiple reproductions over time - pixels can get overwritten with neighbouring colours, particularly with poor digital scanning.

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29 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

I really would be very surprised if this was a blue filter. In b&w film they are very rarely used and most non-professionals wouldn't have one in their camera bag. They are essentially a special effects filter and theres no reason whoever took these photis would have one on. Blue also reduces contrast which doesn't seem to be the case here and darkens most colours - again, not obviously happening in those photos. The photo of the Mk.II prototype is surely ortho film and shows what happens to reds and blues which is consistent with the photos of the ASR Defiant. If its ortho then the codes are not yellow, so that's a circular argument but if it's ortho then the yellow on the roundel is either over-painted or too thin to stand up to multiple reproductions over time - pixels can get overwritten with neighbouring colours, particularly with poor digital scanning.

You make fair points to be sure. I don't think it changes my opinion on the choice of scheme until I see alternate evidence...

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16 hours ago, Zephyr91 said:

Or from a different airframe?  Or part of an experiment (if taken with the fuselage tone near the cockpit)?   Or just a mess because they needed paint but just applied what was easily to hand?

 

Probably all the above Rob! :jump_fire: I faced a similar dilemma on my recent Banff Mosquito FB Mk.VI...

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15 hours ago, AndyL said:

One thing to bear in mind is that the Defiants that went to ASR squadrons were all ex night fighters, and had to be repainted. Some of the airframes were ex AI fitted Defiants, and had the equipment removed but not the aerials, but there then came a follow up order to remove any remaining aerials and wiring, to prevent any chance of the enemy getting their hands on what was left of the AI Mk VI system. 

Good to know Andy - I have not yet seen any photos with the antennae in position, so shall make the assumption they had been removed...

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6 hours ago, Dunny said:

So given that we are talking about 277 Sqn in 1942 the light colours of the codes and spinner suggest Sky, although they could also have been Dark Red. So, with this in mind TSS in 'B' scheme with wavy demarcation and Sky codes and spinner is feasible and backed up by the (altered) photos of BA*A? Phew!!

Phew! Indeed.  :rofl:   Just thought I'd separate out your summary of your target scheme so those of us with lousy memoires can easily locate it with all this really good info flying about.  :thumbsup:

 

Fascinating stuff.

 

Rob

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Well I tried something with the b/w film emulator, but will state right now it was not a one click affair to reach results that approach that of the high contrast photos.   The in between steps were about introducing the effect of sunlight on colours, as well as before and after manipulating the brightness and contrast.   The degree or percentage of altering was also based on what would bring the study closer to the period image, so has less to do with science or knowledge of photography.   In the end it could just be a lucky coincidence the results. 

 

Panchromatic film was also looked at, but none of the seven filters even at 100 percent flip the greys so that red is darker than the blue of the roundel.    Chromatic film on the other hand, does do this.   Unfortunately I had to use the dreaded blue filter as this was the only one to produce the proper results.    Note too that this final step has flipped the tones of the TSS and also provides a bit more contrast between the two. 

BPD-colour-study.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, JackG said:

Chromatic film on the other hand, does do this.   Unfortunately I had to use the dreaded blue filter as this was the only one to produce the proper results.    Note too that this final step has flipped the tones of the TSS and also provides a bit more contrast between the two. 

Jack,

 

Wow - thank you for the effort! Perhaps the dreaded blue filter was in use by a budding photographer? What's also apparent is the increased contrast in the TSS - good enough for me! Really appreciate your input,

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

Edited by Dunny
TSS
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@Dunny  Hello Roger, yeah no problem there,

 

As mentioned, that blue filter flipped the tones of the TSS such that Dark Slate Grey now is the darker tone.   This might confuse whether A or B scheme is being viewed.

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1 hour ago, JackG said:

@Dunny  Hello Roger, yeah no problem there,

 

As mentioned, that blue filter flipped the tones of the TSS such that Dark Slate Grey now is the darker tone.   This might confuse whether A or B scheme is being viewed.

A very good point Jack! I shall have to get my middle-aged brain around the flipping of colours and schemes...

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3 hours ago, stevehnz said:

This is shaping up to be an interesting thread, given a Defiant in this colours is one I've long fancied doing. Seems there may be more to it than at first sight. (Isn't there always? ) :)

Steve.

Every day's a school day Steve! It's great to see the knowledge and skills on display (and I certainly don't mean mine!)

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

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9 hours ago, JackG said:

@Dunny  Hello Roger, yeah no problem there,

 

As mentioned, that blue filter flipped the tones of the TSS such that Dark Slate Grey now is the darker tone.   This might confuse whether A or B scheme is being viewed.

It shouldn't do.

It might raise the question of transposed colours though. 

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Any chance the roundel colours red and blue were of the bright version from the inter war period?

 

Have applied the earlier colours to the left half of the roundel and  a direct emulation of orthochromatic film with no filter does gives a decent contrast between the red and blue.   Some further adjustment of brightness/contrast makes the tones further stand apart.   Problem remains though of attaining any palpable contrast with the TSS. 

 

roundel-colours-inter-war.jpg

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TSS is a scheme that can appear with a wide range of contrasts from effectively none-at-all via moderate to quite extremely light EDSG.  If your emulation/simulation cannot match this variation then it must cast considerable doubt on its capabilities, and the results shown above.

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54 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

If your emulation/simulation cannot match this variation then it must cast considerable doubt on its capabilities,

Graham,

 

did you really mean that statement to come across so black & white (to coin a phrase 😉)?  I don't know the ins and outs of this particular technology but I'm very familiar with creating simulations and the principles of studying all the possible parametric variations around input data that go with them,  as well as checking the  core algorithms and output information- as I'm sure you remember we used to do almost ad nauseum.   

 

In this case I thought we were working with fairly large caveats as to what the results might mean

21 hours ago, JackG said:

so has less to do with science or knowledge of photography.

.... so I wasn't expecting a hard and fast answer out of this.   But it can lead to a set of circumstances or scanarios or parametric variations that shed some light on the question that we started out on.  From which we might harvest a concensus understanding, possibly, maybe .......... :hmmm:

.

 

HTH

 

Rob

Edited by Zephyr91
correcting typos
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Thank you Graham but that goes without saying that all colours, not just TSS, would appear different to some degree dependent on the environment, such as time of day, weather conditions, etc. 

 

Unfortunately the film emulator software does not factor in the environmental effects  Its core is designed to take a modern colour photo and alter that image to appear as a specific type of b/w film.   So for the purposes here it would require knowledge of a particular colour and how it appears under specific environmental conditions.  Only then in its altered form would it give more accurate emulation in b/w film.   I tried adding an interm step with the sunlight adjustment but no idea how much strength should be inputted.    In my searches for software, never did come across one that can toggle weather effects or time of day, but maybe there are some formulas out there to find... 

 

 

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I do have considerable doubts about using modern technology to make judgements on these b&w photos.  I certainly can't say that such attempts are intrinsically doomed, but if the methods used cannot produce different effects on such a variable (in b&w) scheme as TSS then they are inadequate, and if so then what value can be placed on judgements drawn on the other colours?   If that sounds harsh, then so be it.  Perhaps the methods just require some tweaking?

 

Nothing to do with weather, other than lighting conditions which is important in photography.  Up sun or down sun?  Exposed or shadow?  TSS is one scheme that can vary dramatically with film type,   The classic one often discussed is the Skua on HMS Ark Royal with a very light EDSG, because of the effect of the blue in the colour on ortho film.  I have seen the same effect, if rarely, on other aircraft - Gladiator "Faith" at the end if its career is one.  On ortho film another problem is the yellow, which sometimes comes out as black and sometimes doesn't, presumably dependent upon filter.  (Or perhaps the kind of ortho film?)

 

Yes, I do recall analyses using parametric variation, particularly in the early days of the Eurofighter.  Do you want a big wing or big engines?  However had varying the thrust made no difference to the take-off distances, I'd have strongly suspect the equations!  I do remember my first attempt at a Hotol take-off using a new take-off programme, when the beast refused to raise its nose, and I was asked about it in the following morning's debrief.  Most embarrassing - of course it would lift when I realised that the numbers provided by the windtunnel had a different assumption to that in the programme.  (I forget the details, probably wisely.)

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I dunno, I thought the emulator was close to matching tones in the first  photo posted on the first page.    It is the last two photos that is difficult to mimic as they are over exposed, and on top of that are not likely original but have had their contrast dialed up.   As already stated all of those changes requires quess work to mimic what was done (and to what degree) to the original.

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On 26/04/2023 at 09:39, Dunny said:

So, with this in mind TSS in 'B' scheme with wavy demarcation and Sky codes and spinner is feasible and backed up by the (altered) photos of BA*A? Phew!!

So, Roger.  Apologies for the digression.

 

Where were we?  :whistle:

 

Rob

 

 

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