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AP.1086 and section 33B on the web


Giorgio N

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Something that may be of interest to the ones who want to spend time on official documents....

Here's a page where an enthusiast has collected a number of sections taken from different issues of AP.1086, the document that includes the store numbers for a number of items in use by the RAF. Since the page is part of a website devoted to early radar systems, the main focus is on the various electronic components and not all sections are available, in any case there are several that can be of interest to those who don't have radars as main focus.

Of course the part that most of us may be more interested in is Section 33B, where the various finishing paints are listed. This is book 13, that should come from the 1966 issue (although the document carries a 1958 date...). I guess most here will just download Book 13 for this reason

Said that, others may find other sections of interest and some may love to know the code needed to order a swivel seat for a Victor...

 

The download page is here:

https://www.blunham.com/Radar/AP1086.html

 

The website owner very kindly told me he has no issue with me posting this here, however please respect his requests on the use of the documents after downloading them !

 

I have of course given a first look at section 33B and found some things quite interesting, although really very "nerdy"..

One is that there are some colours that were still in the stores even if I can't think of uses for them. One is Light Slate Grey, that should have fallen from use a few years before 1958... unless I'm forgetting something.

Another is Grey Green, available to DTD.314... that is of course the same present in the MAP list of colours during WW2 (the stores reference numbers match). This is another colour that I expected to have not been in use for some time. Was it still used ? Maybe the reason is simply that both were still in the system.

 

One other interesting thing is that a few colours have a BSC number listed in the notes. Not many though, only Bright Blue (BS 108) and Bright Red (BS 538), both with the BS correspondance mentioned only for paints to DTD.314, and Dark Admiralty Grey (BS 632). The latter present only as a "Paint, non slip" to be applied by brushing.

That the other colours did not have a BS number makes sense as the MAP/MoS colours were incorporated in BS.381c at at a later date (as said above the document is said to be from 1966 but carries a 1958 date). the RAF did not generally use BS matched colours at the time, with the exception of those included in the list.

I'm a bit puzzled by the fact that the BS correspondance is listed only for paints made to DTD.314 while all other standards have the same names but no correspondance. Even more puzzled by the reference to BS 108 ! When MoS Blue, Bright was incorporated in BS.381c it became 110.. where is the link with 108 ?

Well, enjoy the documents ! Some may find them useful or at least interesting !

 

Edited by Giorgio N
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LOL. "The 1086" ended up via paper and microfiche, to being fully computer-based. Even back in the 1980s "The 1086" really only applied to a core of PNs, with specific aircraft supplied as local addenda (Vol.3 etc). I never did see "the whole thing".

 

Edited by Sabrejet
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On 06/04/2023 at 11:29, Giorgio N said:

Even more puzzled by the reference to BS 108 ! When MoS Blue, Bright was incorporated in BS.381c it became 110.. where is the link with 108 ?

From 1948 to 1966 the Bright Blue used in British national markings on aircraft was BS 381C No. 108 Aircraft Blue.

 

Aircraft Blue was introduced into BS381C in the 1948 edition and when a set of colour cards for this edition was issued in 1949, some of the colours had a note on the reverse.

 

The card for No. 108 Aircraft Blue had the following note:

"This colour corresponds to Ministry of Supply Aircraft Finish Glossy Blue No.305".

 

The card for No. 538 Post Office Red had the following note:

"To GPO Spec.

Also to Ministry of Supply Aircraft Finish Glossy Red No.304.

Also to London Passenger Transport Board Mail Red".

 

White has never been included in BS 381C.

The shade of Glossy White commonly used in the used in national markings was No.302.

 

I have no idea why BS 381C No.110 Roundel Blue was introduced in 1966 to replace No. 108 Aircraft Blue in the national markings.

 

 

 

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On 4/6/2023 at 11:29 AM, Giorgio N said:

Something that may be of interest to the ones who want to spend time on official documents....

Here's a page where an enthusiast has collected a number of sections taken from different issues of AP.1086, the document that includes the store numbers for a number of items in use by the RAF. Since the page is part of a website devoted to early radar systems, the main focus is on the various electronic components and not all sections are available, in any case there are several that can be of interest to those who don't have radars as main focus.

Of course the part that most of us may be more interested in is Section 33B, where the various finishing paints are listed. This is book 13, that should come from the 1966 issue (although the document carries a 1958 date...). I guess most here will just download Book 13 for this reason

Said that, others may find other sections of interest and some may love to know the code needed to order a swivel seat for a Victor...

 

The download page is here:

https://www.blunham.com/Radar/AP1086.html

 

The website owner very kindly told me he has no issue with me posting this here, however please respect his requests on the use of the documents after downloading them !

 

I have of course given a first look at section 33B and found some things quite interesting, although really very "nerdy"..

One is that there are some colours that were still in the stores even if I can't think of uses for them. One is Light Slate Grey, that should have fallen from use a few years before 1958... unless I'm forgetting something.

Another is Grey Green, available to DTD.314... that is of course the same present in the MAP list of colours during WW2 (the stores reference numbers match). This is another colour that I expected to have not been in use for some time. Was it still used ? Maybe the reason is simply that both were still in the system.

 

One other interesting thing is that a few colours have a BSC number listed in the notes. Not many though, only Bright Blue (BS 108) and Bright Red (BS 538), both with the BS correspondance mentioned only for paints to DTD.314, and Dark Admiralty Grey (BS 632). The latter present only as a "Paint, non slip" to be applied by brushing.

That the other colours did not have a BS number makes sense as the MAP/MoS colours were incorporated in BS.381c at at a later date (as said above the document is said to be from 1966 but carries a 1958 date). the RAF did not generally use BS matched colours at the time, with the exception of those included in the list.

I'm a bit puzzled by the fact that the BS correspondance is listed only for paints made to DTD.314 while all other standards have the same names but no correspondance. Even more puzzled by the reference to BS 108 ! When MoS Blue, Bright was incorporated in BS.381c it became 110.. where is the link with 108 ?

Well, enjoy the documents ! Some may find them useful or at least interesting !

 

Light Slate Grey was used on Canberra B2 as a upper camouflage colour in the mid 1950's (LSG/MSG Upper surfaces, PRU Blue lower).

 

Selwyn

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2 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Light Slate Grey was used on Canberra B2 as a upper camouflage colour in the mid 1950's (LSG/MSG Upper surfaces, PRU Blue lower).

 

Selwyn

 

They sure did and so did a number of Vampire FB-9 and Meteor FR.9. However in both cases that scheme had quickly  been replaced by others so much that during the 1956 Suez crisis part of the Canberra force (most of them?) was in the later overall silver scheme.

Of course if the document linked is dated 1958 by then there could have still been aircraft around in that scheme, so makes sense that the relative paints were still in the system. If the date is 1966 this would be more surprising and it's why I'm curious to find if there were other uses for Light Slate Grey

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3 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

From 1948 to 1966 the Bright Blue used in British national markings on aircraft was BS 381C No. 108 Aircraft Blue.

 

Aircraft Blue was introduced into BS381C in the 1948 edition and when a set of colour cards for this edition was issued in 1949, some of the colours had a note on the reverse.

 

The card for No. 108 Aircraft Blue had the following note:

"This colour corresponds to Ministry of Supply Aircraft Finish Glossy Blue No.305".

 

The card for No. 538 Post Office Red had the following note:

"To GPO Spec.

Also to Ministry of Supply Aircraft Finish Glossy Red No.304.

Also to London Passenger Transport Board Mail Red".

 

White has never been included in BS 381C.

The shade of Glossy White commonly used in the used in national markings was No.302.

 

I have no idea why BS 381C No.110 Roundel Blue was introduced in 1966 to replace No. 108 Aircraft Blue in the national markings.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the information Paul !

Guess that this information should replace the chapter on the postwar Bright Blue in your volumes on the RAF fighter camouflage 1945-50 ? Volumes that I love but I realize they are now over 20 year old...

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Yes, it should replace the historical content in the section that is headed 'Bright Blue' in the two RAF Fighters 1945-1950 volumes.

 

It is now apparent that the reason why I could find no reference to either Ministry of Supply Matt Blue No.12 or Matt Blue No.12A ever being incorporated into BS 381C was because one of them was there as Aircraft Blue No.108 from 1948. The question as to which one of the Matt Blues corresponded to Aircraft Blue No.108 remains open.

 

With regard to the date of the documents, I have only downloaded Sections 33A and 33B and these both seem to be clearly dated.

 

The Section 33A was issued as part of Amendment List No.112 on 16 January 1958 and the Section 33B was issued as part of Amendment List No.113 on 13 February 1958.

Thus what we have here is a Section 33B that as originally printed is correct for February 1958.

 

It appears to have been subsequently amended by hand on at least two occasions, firstly with reference to Amendment List No.134 and secondly with reference to Amendment List No.139. Neither of these ALs is dated in the Section 33B, do they form part of one of the other sections that I have not downloaded? 

 

If it can be found, the date of AL 139 should fix this document's position on a timeline.

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There seems to be a bit of confusion about the dates of issue  on these  pages. This is to do about the method these documents were amended. 

 

The original vol 13 document  appears to be from 1958. When an amendment list (AL) was issued to add or remove information it usually consisted of replacement pages. To amend it You removed the indicated page(s) in the AL and replaced them with the new page supplied in the AL. This new page would have the AL and the date issued on it. The AL would also have a replacement front page with the latest date and AL marked on it. (although rarely  an AL may specify a handwritten amendment). hence pages with different issue dates throughout the document. A page from the initial issue in 1958 if never amended will still have that date on the page many years later. I remember using a servicing AP for  type C bomb trolleys in the 1980's  that had AL's dated 1944!

If after a lot of AL's the documents can get to be a little untidy, so the document would be revamped and re issued as a second edition and the AL process would start again.

the 1966 date  probably relates to the date of the last AL recorded in this document. The section13 front page seems to be missing, as is the amendment list.

 

Selwyn

 

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On 4/20/2023 at 12:22 AM, Selwyn said:

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the dates of issue  on these  pages. This is to do about the method these documents were amended. 

 

The original vol 13 document  appears to be from 1958. When an amendment list (AL) was issued to add or remove information it usually consisted of replacement pages. To amend it You removed the indicated page(s) in the AL and replaced them with the new page supplied in the AL. This new page would have the AL and the date issued on it. The AL would also have a replacement front page with the latest date and AL marked on it. (although rarely  an AL may specify a handwritten amendment). hence pages with different issue dates throughout the document. A page from the initial issue in 1958 if never amended will still have that date on the page many years later. I remember using a servicing AP for  type C bomb trolleys in the 1980's  that had AL's dated 1944!

If after a lot of AL's the documents can get to be a little untidy, so the document would be revamped and re issued as a second edition and the AL process would start again.

the 1966 date  probably relates to the date of the last AL recorded in this document. The section13 front page seems to be missing, as is the amendment list.

 

Selwyn

 

First job on your fitter course was amend all the AP's you'd been issued with. 

Edited by tweeky
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When I was at RAF Sek Kong, I got permission to order the Vol 3[ Aircraft Spares Catalogue ] for  the Wessex 5, as there were more reference numbers in there than the Mk 2.

 

When it arrived as 5 or 6 books[cannot remember],it came complete with 40 Amendments to do, of course you cannot just put the last amendment in, start with AL 1, put new pages in, then 2 etc, so it was put new pages in ,then take them out with next amendment, etc, it took me 2 weeks to get it up to date.

 

The MK 2 Vol 3, had more manufacturers part numbers than reference numbers, and part number demands took longer than Sect./Ref. demands.

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I hope you did the page by page muster after each amendment change.  :giggle:

I had the similar role in my unit(s).  Also had the same work to do on amendments to NATO code books and callsign books.  :rage:

 

I now work, as a volunteer, at the Helicopter Museum in Somerset.  Most of our A.P.s are book form; however, we have a few manuals and their amendments, on Microfiche but don't have a microfiche scanner/converter and there are hundreds of sheets/files to be scanned.  I took a set along to the local library, that has one of these machines, and it took me nearly two days just to do 40 sheets (almost 4,000 pages).  For those that don't know about microfiche, each sheet has 98 individual pages that are smaller than the size of a stamp.

 

cheers,

Mike

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4 hours ago, RAF4EVER said:

part number demands took longer than Sect./Ref. demands.

Ah, 26 WX sec/ref numbers. I remember it well.

 

And amendments. At least it was a sitting down job. Usually if you were unwell & unable to work on Aircraft.

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  • 9 months later...
On 19/04/2023 at 11:14, Paul Lucas said:

 

I have no idea why BS 381C No.110 Roundel Blue was introduced in 1966 to replace No. 108 Aircraft Blue in the national markings.

 

 

 

 

Looping this round, as discussed in another thread, I have been puzzled or years by a reference on the Wiki page for Ultramarine

"During World War I, the RAF painted the outer roundels with a color made from Ultramarine Blue. This became BS 108(381C) Aircraft Blue. It was replaced in the 1960s by a new color made on Phthalocyanine Blue, BS110(381C) Roundel Blue"

There is no attribution or evidence for that statement, but it does give a potential lead (I know Ultramarine was used for the blues from WW1 onwards)

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On 4/20/2023 at 12:26 AM, tweeky said:

First job on your fitter course was amend all the AP's you'd been issued with. 

Also job as LAC scrote in the Section.

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On 4/24/2023 at 6:51 PM, Pete in Lincs said:

Ah, 26 WX sec/ref numbers. I remember it well.

 

And amendments. At least it was a sitting down job. Usually if you were unwell & unable to work on Aircraft.

Cough.....26WX was the Domestic Management Code.........1680  was the section......99 was the Nation Code...........1234567 (from 3 to 7 figures) was the reference number.....

 

.......much as we always called them the Section Ref.

 

Thirty years a stacker, there must be a film in it.

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Quality document.

 

As noted before, these were held on Microfische for years. 

 

In the Section DMC 22 & 23, Ground and Flying Clothing, lists of prices so people could be billed for losing kit. 

 

Up in the Oil, Paints, Fuels & Lubes, a good few products there that would be banned nowadays due to their contents, Trike is one I noted.  Sure I read of a Safety Equipper taking the MoD to court because of Health complications.

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