Lublin R-XIII D - current research on camo colours?

[Shorty84]

Hi guys,

 

during a recent visit at my LHS I saw they had two kits of the Lublin R-XIII D in 1/48 (original Spojnia and Mirage-rebox). I got interested and started a bit of reaseach (you know, kit quality, Aftermaket available, ...) and I noticed that there are different interpreations of the colour scheme.

 

In general I've seen two different camo variants:

 

- Green/Dark Brown/Tan (or Light Brown) over Light Blue

https://modelingmadness.com/scott/allies/pl/lublinr13.htm

https://forum.largescalemodeller.com/topic/5373-lublin-r-xiiid-132-lukgraph/

https://ipmspolska.org.pl/project/lublin-r-xiii-d-mirage-hobby-1-48/

 

- Dark green/Light Green/Tan (or Light Brown) over Light Blue

https://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal13/12601-12700/gal12643-Lublin-Oslizlo/00.shtm

https://lukgraph.pl/userdata/public/gfx/453.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/6049/6350777322_85e0e4c397_b.jpg

 

So my question is, does anyone know what are the correct colours for the R-XIII D? There doesn't seem to be a dedicated paint set available so if anyone knows which of the above schemes is correct and which paints are the best match for each of the colours it would be much appreciated. Maybe one of our Polish friends @JWM, @GrzeM, @KRK4m can help?

Also, if anyone knows where one can find good period photos of these machines (there are many profiles but not too many photos of them) I would be much obliged.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Cheers
Markus

[JWM]

Hi, to be frank as you said, there are two confessions regarding the scheme on Loblin R XIII and I do not know which is correct.....

[GrzeM]

I think I know proper guy - Marek Trojanowicz, who wrote a book about Lublin planes.

I will ask him and let you know.

I think there's an answer for your question 🙂

[Shorty84]

Hi @JWM, thanks for trying. I definitely always pick the hardest nuts to crack

 

1 hour ago, GrzeM said:

I think I know proper guy - Marek Trojanowicz, who wrote a book about Lublin planes.

I will ask him and let you know.

I think there's an answer for your question 🙂

Wow, that would be awesome! Many thanks for taking the time, much appreciated 👍

 

Cheers

Markus

[JWM]

Some photos from Net (likely you have them already)

 

The above photo is of particular interest - you may see that the pattern is well defined, same on all 3 machines. 

Regards

J-W 

[Shorty84]

1 hour ago, JWM said:

Some photos from Net (likely you have them already)

I knew them already indeed but haven't found the last two in such a good quality, so thanks again.

 

The machine in the second last photo ('White 8') is supposed to have a non-standard camo of khaki over light blue from what I've read. And on the machines in the last photo it looks like the cowl and the metal panels aft of the engines are darker than any of the camo colours. Maybe they are painted in a different colour (khaki)? 

 

Ahhh, more questions...

 

Cheers

Markus

[tempestfan]

9 hours ago, Shorty84 said:

The machine in the second last photo ('White 8') is supposed to have a non-standard camo of khaki over light blue from what I've read.

Does it have a tri-colour fin, or is it just an effect of ribs and lighting?

[Shorty84]

10 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Does it have a tri-colour fin, or is it just an effect of ribs and lighting?

These are just light reflections from what I can see.

 

Cheers

Markus

[tempestfan]

You are likely right - but the top third would need quite some tapering rudder post to explain the relative lightness there. In any event, I had a first look at the Mirage kit in my stash (never did that before), and it looks pretty nice. Why didn't they do a Sum to that standard - the Poles appear to had an "ugliest aircraft ever" contest going in 1938/9 (think Zubr), but the Sum has a certain charme. And I have that wonderful Modelland (?) vac upstairs - very impressive!

[JWM]

3 hours ago, tempestfan said:

You are likely right - but the top third would need quite some tapering rudder post to explain the relative lightness there. In any event, I had a first look at the Mirage kit in my stash (never did that before), and it looks pretty nice. Why didn't they do a Sum to that standard - the Poles appear to had an "ugliest aircraft ever" contest going in 1938/9 (think Zubr), but the Sum has a certain charme. And I have that wonderful Modelland (?) vac upstairs - very impressive!

High standard resin kit of Sum was produced  in 1/72 by Ardpol, unfortunately not available now since this small company closed itself. There is also Broplan vacu of Sum, not bad as well I have it in my stash. BTW Zubr's indeed llimited charm or grace is on the level of early thirthies like that of  BP Overstrand, Bloch 200, Mitsubishi hki1 or Dornier Do Y...  😀 

[dnl42]

Here's my build, which I believe I used the Mirage color spec.

 

I hope this isn't disruptive, but does anybody have information on the colors for the V-tailed R-XIX? There's an article and photo at http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/1698/126/Lublin-R-XIX. In that article, they note:

Quote

The aircraft was created in 1932 from the modification of the R-XIII prototype (No. 56-1). 

Was that aircraft in camo colors or some simpler scheme?

 

Another site claims to show a more detailed photo of the aircraft empennage, but it's structurally inconsistent with the full-aircraft photo.

[JWM]

8 hours ago, dnl42 said:

Another site claims to show a more detailed photo of the aircraft empennage, but it's structurally inconsistent with the full-aircraft photo.

Sometimes there are errors in descriptions of photo. The original V-type empennage invented (1928) by eng. Jerzy Rudlicki  was installed firstly on the Hanriot H.28 , so maybe the other photo is of Hanriot not Lublin R-XIII (both were produced by the same factory in Poland, AFAIR),  Perhaps it was also modified during trials.

Regards

J-W.  

[Shorty84]

9 hours ago, dnl42 said:

Another site claims to show a more detailed photo of the aircraft empennage, but it's structurally inconsistent with the full-aircraft photo.

I guess you are talking about this photo: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/spyww2/lublinr19/lublinr19-2.jpg

 

It is indeed showing the Hanriot H.28 testbed, compare the upper wing cutout: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Hanriot_H.28_1.jpg/1024px-Hanriot_H.28_1.jpg

 

And finally one pic of the testbed in flight: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/H.28-Rudlicki.jpg/1024px-H.28-Rudlicki.jpg

 

Cheers

Markus

[303sqn]

Polish Fighting Colours vol 1, page 15, says Nobiles Company supplied paints to Lublin. A factory specification for painting the Lublin R-XIII has also survived  that includes colour numbers from the Nobiles chip chart and in some cases with colour names, Unfortunately it does not list them.

 

Agama produced a number of Polish colours tfor the Jadar Shop. These now seem to be discontinued. This is the only one left now;

 

https://www.jadarhobby.pl/agama-p07-polish-ochre-aircraft-paint-p-7749.html

 

There was an olive green and a bright light blue as well as a Sky like colour for the Naval air arm.

 

[GrzeM]

7 hours ago, 303sqn said:

Polish Fighting Colours vol 1, page 15, says Nobiles Company supplied paints to Lublin. A factory specification for painting the Lublin R-XIII has also survived  that includes colour numbers from the Nobiles chip chart and in some cases with colour names, Unfortunately it does not list them.

 

This is exactly effect of Marek Trojanowicz's research. Nobiles chip chart in this book comes from Marek's collection (it is written in the caption). I already asked Marek, he told me that he will give answer on week-end.

[KRK4m]

I make a reservation in advance that I have never conducted any research in this field, and the following opinion is only the result of a logical analysis of the premises.

So, first of all, the undersurfaces, in my opinion, were not blue, but silver grey.

As for the uppersurface colours, I am definitely leaning towards the options (from darkest to lightest): brown, green, sand. I rely on the analogy to the Polish Army AFV camouflage. Among the modelers dealing with this subject, the colours have been established for quite a long time and - unfortunately - they differ slightly from the pictures on the kit boxes.

The brown colour is #43312A = FS30059 = RAL8014 = Valeo 70.871#147 = Hu173

Green is #6F6D4C = FS34127 = BS4800 12D45 = RAL 770-3 = Valeo 70.978#116 = Hu226

Sand is #BAA784 = FS33448 = BS4800 08B19 = RAL 075 70 20 = Hu237 = Modelmaster 2910 

AFV models painted in this way perfectly fit into the Polish landscape colours. Especially the Sand should be more greyish than orange yellow so frequently shown.

Of course, I am far from saying that the colours of Lublin camouflage were identical to those on 7TP tanks, tankettes and armoured cars. But I remember how many years it took to eradicate the myth about the green upper surfaces of PZL and PWS aircraft.

Let us also remember that Lublins were manufactured in 1931-34 and the factory-applied colours may differ significantly from those spotted on these planes in 1939.

Especially if it turns out that the darkest of them (brown sepia) was the standard uppersurface paint of plain-coloured PZL planes.

I am very curious how far my conclusions differ from the opinion of Marek Trojanowicz

Cheers

Michael

Edited April 1, 2023 by KRK4m

[Shorty84]

Hi guys,

 

great discussion, seems we are close getting an answer

 

@303sqn:

Thanks a lot for the hint regarding Agama paints. The description of the paint proved to be really interesting:"Use in Polish Airforce in late 30.
For upper surfaces in three-color camouflage (for example Lublin R.XIII). This paint was use with Polish Khaki (Agama P4 P) and Polish Olive Green (Agama P6 P)."

 

So I found the other paints which gives me an idea how the camo colours should look like (see left column; of course, the shown colours may look a bit different in reality as this is just a digital approximation). It also shows the green colour used on the R-XIII hydro:

 

@GrzeM:

Many thanks. I'm eager to see Mr. Trojanowicz's research on this and how it compares to the Agama paints.

 

@KRK4m:

Thanks for your detailed thoughts. Interesting your comment regarding the silver-gray undersurfaces, that would be different than all profiles I've seen which specify a light blue (which doesn't make it correct of course). May I ask how you came to this conclusion?

A good idea to look at contemporary AFV colours. I've added the Agama AFV paints next to their Aircraft colours above and while similar they are different enough (considering they are all accurate). In any case, both systems suggest earty tones which is in contrast to many profiles and kits I've seen which go for higher contrasts and into the green direction.

 

Cheers

Markus