Hinomaru size?

[Greenshirt]

I’ve got quite a few older kits with useless decals and instead of buying sheets of Hinomaru decals I’ve decided to cut the Hinomaru masks using my silhouette cameo. But what size were they?  I’ve searched j-aircraft.com as well as this site and there is a lot of discussion regarding colours and the 75mm white band and when it was added, but never any mention of the basic size or position. Do we know what the IJN/IJA regulations or rules were for them?

 

I can of course simply measure the kit ones and assume they are the correct size, but since I’m creating the stencil I can do it properly the first time. I would appreciate any help. 
 

Tim

[JackG]

Though an article about the Oscar. the link below gives some formulas and measurements about the national insignia

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/ija-type-1-fighter-nakajima-hayabusa-oscar-2/

[Seawinder]

I'd say that since Hinomaru size and placement depended (at least to some extent) on length and chord of the wing, there's not going to be any standard size across aircraft types. This jives with aftermarket decal sets that tend to have a bunch of different sizes for different types. You're probably not taking too big a risk copying the dimensions of kit decals.

 

The link posted by JackG is definitely worth looking at, thanks!

[spitfire]

I would (and do) measure the kit ones and cut a mask the same size.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Greenshirt]

10 hours ago, JackG said:

Though an article about the Oscar. the link below gives some formulas and measurements about the national insignia

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/ija-type-1-fighter-nakajima-hayabusa-oscar-2/

Thanks, Jack. This is precisely what I was searching for. Emphasis mine. 
 

Tim
 

Quote

Thus in the beginning only four wing Hinomaru were painted on the Ki-43. It had a diameter of 1,1 – 1.2m (¾ of the wing chord) and its centre was located 1,5m from the wingtips. In some cases the insignia on the wing undersides were painted much closer to the fuselage (2,5m from wingtips). The centre was located midway on the wing chord, ailerons included.

Factory-applied Hinomaru appeared on the fuselage some time during the production of Mod.II. Its centre was located 3,6m from the rear of the a/c (i.e. 4/10 of the length), roughly in the middle of the vertical section, and had a diameter of 0,7m. The wing Hinomaru from Mod.II onwards changed to 1,4m in diameter, its centre located 2,1m from the wing tips (the wing span being shorter than on Mod.I!). In other words the distance between the wing tip and the outer edge of the Hinomaru was equal to the diameter of the Hinomaru itself, a rather frequent rule on many JAAF a/c. These positions and sizes of the Hinomaru remained unchanged after the introduction of factory camouflage.

 

[Greenshirt]

I’ve got over 25 kits, Navy, AF, single, multi engined, and all 1/72. I want to cut stencils for the Hinomaru and I’d like to be rather accurate in location, size, and color. I can certainly assume the model makers got the size and location correct, but I don’t like assuming unless there is no information available to guide me. 
 

It seems odd to me that Japan did not have some sort of common spec for aircraft national markings, such as found in the Ki-43 as noted above. I would expect the same sort of guidance, not just “paint a circle the size you like where you want, but be sure to add a 75mm white surround”; or “each aircraft has its own unique spec except for the yellow leading edges and white surround”.  The leaders seemed to be quite specific with respect to the yellow leading edge and the white surround, and most countries did have specs of some sort like some in common sizes to a minimum/maximum, or sizes tied to wing or fuselage measurements.
 

Is that information lost to time?  If that is the case, please confirm and I’ll take the “assume” approach.

 

Tim

[JackG]

Nick Millman and his publication on the Zero has just a small paragraph introducing the Hinomaru.   He gives the wing marking diameter of 90cm while those on the  fuselage as 75cm.

[Paul Lucas]

 

42 minutes ago, Greenshirt said:

I’ve got over 25 kits, Navy, AF, single, multi engined, and all 1/72. I want to cut stencils for the Hinomaru and I’d like to be rather accurate in location, size, and color. I can certainly assume the model makers got the size and location correct, but I don’t like assuming unless there is no information available to guide me. 
 

It seems odd to me that Japan did not have some sort of common spec for aircraft national markings, such as found in the Ki-43 as noted above. I would expect the same sort of guidance, not just “paint a circle the size you like where you want, but be sure to add a 75mm white surround”; or “each aircraft has its own unique spec except for the yellow leading edges and white surround”.  The leaders seemed to be quite specific with respect to the yellow leading edge and the white surround, and most countries did have specs of some sort like some in common sizes to a minimum/maximum, or sizes tied to wing or fuselage measurements.
 

Is that information lost to time?  If that is the case, please confirm and I’ll take the “assume” approach.

 

Tim

May I suggest that you have a look at Nicholas Millman's 'Aviation of Japan' website?

 

www.aviationofjapan.com

 

I suspect that if he can't help you, nobody can.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Paul Lucas

[Greenshirt]

28 minutes ago, Paul Lucas said:

 

May I suggest that you have a look at Nicholas Millman's 'Aviation of Japan' website?

 

www.aviationofjapan.com

 

I suspect that if he can't help you, nobody can.

 

 

I’ve looked, but not found anything in the posts there.  I’d forgotten about contacting him directly.  I’ll email him and see if he has some details.  That’s a good recommendations, thanks.

 

Tim

[Seawinder]

5 hours ago, Greenshirt said:

I’ve got over 25 kits, Navy, AF, single, multi engined, and all 1/72. I want to cut stencils for the Hinomaru and I’d like to be rather accurate in location, size, and color. I can certainly assume the model makers got the size and location correct, but I don’t like assuming unless there is no information available to guide me. 
 

It seems odd to me that Japan did not have some sort of common spec for aircraft national markings, such as found in the Ki-43 as noted above. I would expect the same sort of guidance, not just “paint a circle the size you like where you want, but be sure to add a 75mm white surround”; or “each aircraft has its own unique spec except for the yellow leading edges and white surround”.  The leaders seemed to be quite specific with respect to the yellow leading edge and the white surround, and most countries did have specs of some sort like some in common sizes to a minimum/maximum, or sizes tied to wing or fuselage measurements.
 

Is that information lost to time?  If that is the case, please confirm and I’ll take the “assume” approach.

 

Tim

Did you look at the article that JackG posted? Scroll down to National Insignia and Other Markings

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/ija-type-1-fighter-nakajima-hayabusa-oscar-2/

 

Assuming its information is reliable, there were definite formulas for size and placement based on wing chord and length. Nowhere is stated "paint a circle the size you like where you want." As for there being various sizes related to specific aircraft types rather than standardized sizes, perhaps it's down to the simplicity of the Hinomaru compared to say British roundels or American stars/bars -- pretty easy to mask/paint a circle of given radius conforming to the specific aircraft formula.

[Greenshirt]

1 hour ago, Seawinder said:

Did you look at the article that JackG posted? Scroll down to National Insignia and Other Markings

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/ija-type-1-fighter-nakajima-hayabusa-oscar-2/

 

Assuming its information is reliable, there were definite formulas for size and placement based on wing chord and length. Nowhere is stated "paint a circle the size you like where you want." As for there being various sizes related to specific aircraft types rather than standardized sizes, perhaps it's down to the simplicity of the Hinomaru compared to say British roundels or American stars/bars -- pretty easy to mask/paint a circle of given radius conforming to the specific aircraft formula.

Yes, I did read it. I quoted some excerpts of the formulas in a reply post and was ready to run with it but others replied those formulas were for the Ki-43-II only and other aircraft had differing rules. Apparently there was significant variation in size and position, so I’m either going to trust model/decal manufacturers or wait to build a model until after I get photo evidence and measure the Hinomaru from those photos.
 

Okay that last bit is a little tongue in cheek, but the variation does exist not only between aircraft types but even within aircraft types and units. Even the Ki-43-I used a different set of formulas for factory application and maintenance units seemed to have freedom to change the size and location. Confirmed by Nick Millman in an email earlier today. 
 

I don’t want to hope I can find photo evidence for a particular subject that’s suitable for measuring as it’s not often they are measurable and I’m not as young as I once was so I’m likely going to use approximate sizes and locations based on kit instructions/ decals.  Not optimal but it’s what I can achieve.

 

Tim