ID of WW2 vehicle requested

[zed]

I am trying to identify a vehicle in the attached photo.  I think that it is  K2/Y.

 

Does anyone know for sure?

 

Picture taken at Acroma in 1942 with the 8th Army.

[Kingsman]

Not a K2.  The semi-permanent detachable steps suggest that it is either a radio van or an office van.  The K2 had fold-up steps.  It also has a leaf spring towing pintle.  It has an arabic serial number hiding behind the right door, suggesting British rather than captured, although the 20 on the rear mudflap is odd.  I'm thinking it's a maximum speed sign: wrong shape and side for AOR and a bridge plate would be on the front.  Taken with the arabic serial number, this suggests an older vehicle in Egypt since before WW2.

 

The right side steps out slightly at the bottom, which made me think about drop-down extended floor panels like some machinery wagons.  The rear doors are bi-fold across the whole width.  I can't make out what is on the floor inside the doors: potentially a stack of folding camp chairs.  The height of the deck and the rear view of the axle are making me think that this is one of the several 6x4 3-ton chassis, which shared many common bodies.  But as for which and which body .....................

[zed]

Kingsman, that is great info, thanks.

 

Knowing what I know of the situation, it is almost certainly an office van. 

 

The picture is of my uncle who was a minister attached to the 8th Army.  Family lore has it that he performed services/communion from the steps of this van, so the folding camp chairs is very likely. I noticed the arabic number in the right ans thought that was odd too. 

 

Thanks so much for your help.

[Slackbladder]

Could be a Leyland Retriever, which Monty used as his caravan. I found this image of a GPO post war one, where they purchased four from the military after the war. This one is an 8 ton with 8 wheels on the rear, there were 6 wheel versions, but the rear body has the bi-fold doors and looks like hooks for the steps maybe.

 

 

Six wheel version comms truck from 1941

Edited March 25, 2023 by Slackbladder

[Kingsman]

So it's likely a mobile church van then.  This is probably unique, as chaplains/padres normally only got a Jeep or a 15cwt truck.  No it isn't the one above.  2 more mobile churches were built in the UK for 21st Army Group in NW Europe.  On Leyland Retrievers by the look of them.

 

So on that basis I think your picture might well be the back of this lorry.  A one-off built in Egypt by RAOC on an AEC Marshall 3 ton 6x4 chassis.  Named The Motor Church Of Saint George.

 

Have a look at this site for more info: https://thechaplainkit.com/history/chaplain-issued-items/chaplain-vehicles/

 

Friendship Models make a kit of it in 1/76.  http://friendshipmodels.co.uk/epages/927b314c-3d48-4f6e-9263-90c86771b2e6.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/927b314c-3d48-4f6e-9263-90c86771b2e6/Products/WV76063

[bootneck]

1 hour ago, Slackbladder said:

Could be a Leyland Retriever, which Monty used as his caravan. I found this image of a GPO post war one, where they purchased four from the military after the war. This one is an 8 ton with 8 wheels on the rear, there were 6 wheel versions, but the rear body has the bi-fold doors and looks like hooks for the steps maybe.

 

 

I can't get that file to open and would like to see a GPO version.  Can you check the link please?

 

Mike

[dcrfan]

Same problem opening Slackbladder photos

[Slackbladder]

I had to copy and paste to Word get the photo to upload but here is the site it came from https://www.britishtelephones.com/vehicles/boxvehicles/010.htm

[PeteH1969]

Kingsman's is closer as the vehicle in the picture is a single wheel (one either side) per axle and not a twin the AEC Marshall 3 ton 6x4 chassis is the best guess, remember back in the day it was supplied as a cab and frame and anything could be built on it by who ever was using it.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Pete

[Slackbladder]

Yes the one Kingsman found using the AEC Marshall would be the one in north Africa. There were two later versions in north west Europe 1944-45 which were based on the Leyland Retriever 3 ton 6x4. The 8 ton twin axles GPO one was modified after the war but was only one of very few images to show the rear of one of these trucks that happened to have the same bi-fold door design as the original pic posted.

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Slackbladder

[zed]

Thank you all, this is fantastic information and I knew that someone here would have the answers.

 

I do think that the Motor Church of St George is the likely culprit.  The only thing that makes me wonders is that my uncle was brought up Methodist, in fact his older brother was the Methodist rep to the World Council of churches, so I am fairly sure that he would be Methodist Minister rather than CofE. It is very likely that they shared vehicles.  Of note, he and I, were born and raised in the village of St. Georges!

 

One thing that makes me wonder are the tyres.  The AEC Marshall 3 ton 6x4 Motor Church Of Saint George seems to have much heavier duty ones compared to my photo.

Edited March 22, 2023 by zed

[Kingsman]

@zed tyres would have been changed over time as they wore.  In your original photo 2 different tyres are visible on the reamost axle, "banana tread" on the left and road tread on the right (as you see it).  Radial-grooved tyres actually proved better in the desert sand than heavily treaded cross-country types.  I spotted a photo the other day of one of these 6x4s - a Leyland IIRC - with a different tyre on every wheel station.  No-one bothered about having uniform tyre types in the middle of a war: they used what they could get once things were in service.  The question of tyre tread types on 3t 6x4s came up on another thread.

 

If you enlarge the Motor Church photo you can see matching road tread tyres on the front axle, same as the rearmost offside.  The middle offside tyre is another "banana tread".  So we have identified 5 of the 6 tyres on the rims: the only one that can't be seen is the middle nearside.  The spare behind the cab looks like another road tread.  Things the Friendship Models research failed to spot.  Although there might well have been different tyres at different times.

[zed]

I thought that there were different tyres in the picture but thought I was imagining things, so thanks for the confirmation.

 

It just occurred to me that my Uncle's surname was Leyland, so very appropo.

 

 

 

 

[PeteH1969]

3 hours ago, Kingsman said:

@zed tyres would have been changed over time as they wore.  In your original photo 2 different tyres are visible on the reamost axle, "banana tread" on the left and road tread on the right (as you see it).  Radial-grooved tyres actually proved better in the desert sand than heavily treaded cross-country types.  I spotted a photo the other day of one of these 6x4s - a Leyland IIRC - with a different tyre on every wheel station.  No-one bothered about having uniform tyre types in the middle of a war: they used what they could get once things were in service.  The question of tyre tread types on 3t 6x4s came up on another thread.

 

If you enlarge the Motor Church photo you can see matching road tread tyres on the front axle, same as the rearmost offside.  The middle offside tyre is another "banana tread".  So we have identified 5 of the 6 tyres on the rims: the only one that can't be seen is the middle nearside.  The spare behind the cab looks like another road tread.  Things the Friendship Models research failed to spot.  Although there might well have been different tyres at different times.

Using photoshop I have altered the brightness and contrast.

 

I think it is an AEC Type? going by the diff shape and towing leaf spring behind the persons feet and I think it says S30 on the left mudguard.

 

Pete

[Kingsman]

This vehicle is positively identified as an AEC Marshal.  It was the only known mobile church in the whole of N Africa.  The front view is conclusive.  AEC, not Leyland.  Yes I realise that is a problem in 1/35 as there is a Leyland kit but no AEC, and the cabs are quite different.  I'm not sure that anyone would know the chassis differences.

 

As for the number you may have uncovered, that would be the usual location for an Arm Of Service mark.  A vehicle like this is likely to be attached at higher formation level, Army or Corps and I think I may have tracked down a strong possibility.  830, not S30.  830 was assigned to HQ 1 Expeditionary Force Institute.  This included NAAFI and ENSA.  Not entirely logical but not entirely illogical either for such a unique vehicle/unit.  Setting up near NAAFI canteens might have been a good pitch.

 

In the Middle East period there were still mostly 2-digit AOS numbers.  But I can't find a 30 allocated to any unit that makes any sense.  1st Army GHQ, LOC and Army units were using 3-digit AOS from December 42, which is where I found the 830.  There is a 530, thinking that your S might be a 5, but that belonged to 62 AA Bde RA.  There is a 630, thinking the S could be a 6, assigned to 4 Base Transfusion Unit, 10 and 12 Field Transfusion Units RAMC.  Nothing else comes close to fitting.

 

I've been right the way through Hodges & Taylor, the most authoritative book to date on British WW2 markings, and I can't find a specific AOS allocation for Padres or Chaplains at any command level.  So I imagine they were simply part of unit HQs.  The only identifiable padre or chaplain vehicle I can find with a visible AOS is this one from the National Army Museum.  Clearly N Africa again.  AOS 49.  In that time period I can only find 49 assigned to Corps RASC on red/green, Armd Bde HQ on green, Corps Field Wksp on Black, Corps MG Battalion on red.  Colour contrast suggests green, so this is most likely an Armd Bde chaplain.  

Edited April 19, 2023 by Kingsman
Bad spelling!

[Slackbladder]

Dang! Now if only someone made the above 1940 Ford in 1/35 in some way, shape or form I could make my early LRDG pilot car.....don't bother looking, been there done it for hours trying to find something to convert.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Slackbladder

[Circloy]

5 hours ago, Kingsman said:

The front view is conclusive.  AEC, not Leyland.  Yes I realise that is a problem in 1/35 as there is a Leyland kit but no AEC, and the cabs are quite different.  I'm not sure that anyone would know the chassis differences.

Online photo's suggest that the AEC cab is a simple affair made up of flat panels which shouldn't be too difficult to scratch build. The radiator is probably similar in size & outline to that used on the Matador (with different cooling arragements) so could be based on the AFV club model. There's more differences between the Matador & Marshall than the AEC & Leyland making the AFV club cab not a practical swap. The hardest part appears to be the wings.

 

Regarding the chassis the AEC's wheelbase is 3.1/2" shorter, 2.6 mm in 1/35th, hardly worth removing. The rear bogie on both was of WD design. the fuel tank arrangements look identical.  Frame shape, cross members & individual component probably did differ but most would not know.

 

Leyland to AEC does look to be a possible conversion worthy of a bit more investigation.

[zed]

18 hours ago, Circloy said:

Online photo's suggest that the AEC cab is a simple affair made up of flat panels which shouldn't be too difficult to scratch build. The radiator is probably similar in size & outline to that used on the Matador (with different cooling arragements) so could be based on the AFV club model. There's more differences between the Matador & Marshall than the AEC & Leyland making the AFV club cab not a practical swap. The hardest part appears to be the wings.

 

Regarding the chassis the AEC's wheelbase is 3.1/2" shorter, 2.6 mm in 1/35th, hardly worth removing. The rear bogie on both was of WD design. the fuel tank arrangements look identical.  Frame shape, cross members & individual component probably did differ but most would not know.

 

Leyland to AEC does look to be a possible conversion worthy of a bit more investigation.

So, I think the gist of what you are saying is that I can combine an AFV Club Matador with the ICM Leyland Retriever plus a bit of scratchbuilding to may this vehicle?  If so, I have both of these kits already.  Just need to sculpt my Uncle Elgar's face.

 

[Slackbladder]

Should be easy then if you already have the AFV Club 'Uncle' and the ICM 'Elgar' kits in your stash? No?

[Circloy]

What I actually said was:

On 23/03/2023 at 20:48, Circloy said:

There's more differences between the Matador & Marshall than the AEC & Leyland making the AFV club cab not a practical swap.

emphasis being given to not.

 

The Matador cab includes curved (slightly) panels where as the Marshal's were all flat which should make the basic cab easy to replicate from plastic sheet. Only the basic outline of the radiator may be of use.

 

However ........

 

could the 3 ton Leyland chassis & the Matador cab be used to represent the 10 ton 0854?

 

link

Edited March 24, 2023 by Circloy
clarified wt capacity

[zed]

On 3/24/2023 at 2:42 PM, Slackbladder said:

Should be easy then if you already have the AFV Club 'Uncle' and the ICM 'Elgar' kits in your stash? No?

Thanks, that was funny