A.V.G. Flying Tigers P-40B interior colours

[FritzNYC]

Getting ready to start on the Airfix 1/48 P-40B/Tomahawk kit in Flying Tigers livery and had some questions about the shade(s) of interior green on these aircraft. I mainly use Colourcoats enamels and wondering what would be the closest match, my two contending options are ACUS09 US Interior Green ANA 611 and/or ACUS22 Zinc Chromate Green. Any advice on which of the below options are correct (or are the closest, I'm not that obsessive about it and really try to avoid having to mix paints to match it down to the micron).

 

1) Interior Green ANA 611 for the cockpit and Zinc Chromate Green for the wheel wells

OR

2) Interior Green ANA 611 for both cockpit and wheel wells

OR

3) Zinc Chromate Green for both cockpit and wheel wells

 

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/products/acus09-usn-usaaf-interior-green

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/products/acus22-zinc-chromate-green

 

Any guidance is much appreciated.

[LDSModeller]

5 hours ago, FritzNYC said:

Flying Tigers livery and had some questions about the shade(s) of interior green on these aircraft.

 

Given that these aircraft were purchased by the British Air Ministry (not Lend Lease)

I would not be using US Interior Green or Zinc Chromate, as the

Air Ministry/Ministry of Aircraft Production would have specified RAF paint types for the cockpit, albeit

manufactured in the US - Other US paint types were permitted in use (see comment below re wheel wells)

 

The actual colour (IMHO) would be more like this blue/green Interior colour in the this Hudson photo

(Photo used with permission NR Mines)

I have tried mixing the colour, but it takes a bit of getting it right to the Mk I Eyeball

 

Since these were British purchased and you are using Colour Coats, I would

likely use their RAF Cockpit Grey Green - not a pure match, but way closer

than US Interior Green.

For the Wheel wheel wheels I would go with the Curtiss Colour in the photo below

 

That colour can easily be mixed to the "Eye" by mixing Yellow Zinc Chromate and a little Aluminium as

I did in a P40 build previously

 

Hope that's of help?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

Edited March 18 by LDSModeller
Update Photo links

[dogsbody]

2 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

 

Given that these aircraft were purchased by the British Air Ministry (not Lend Lease)

I would not be using US Interior Green or Zinc Chromate, as the

Air Ministry/Ministry of Aircraft Production would have specified RAF paint types for the cockpit, albeit

manufactured in the US - Other US paint types were permitted in use (see comment below re wheel wells)

 

The actual colour (IMHO) would be more like this blue/green Interior colour in the this Hudson photo

(Photo used with permission NR Mines)

I have tried mixing the colour, but it takes a bit of getting it right to the Mk I Eyeball

 

Since these were British purchased and you are using Colour Coats, I would

likely use their RAF Cockpit Grey Green - not a pure match, but way closer

than US Interior Green.

For the Wheel wheel wheels I would go with the Curtiss Colour in the photo below

 

That colour can easily be mixed to the "Eye" by mixing Yellow Zinc Chromate and a little Aluminium as

I did in a P40 build previously

 

Hope that's of help?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

 

Your links to Village.Photos do not work on this forum, as they don't have the proper security coding. 

 

 

 

Chris

[LDSModeller]

1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

Your links to Village.Photos do not work on this forum, as they don't have the proper security coding. 

Thanks Chris,

 

The photos show up in my post, but I'll look at using another Photo site if they

don't appear for others

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Chuck1945]

I don’t see the photos either

[Magpie22]

Ditto!

I gave up on Village Photos some time ago as their site seems to have become derelict.

Peter M

 

[LDSModeller]

29 minutes ago, Chuck1945 said:

I don’t see the photos either

 

6 minutes ago, Magpie22 said:

I gave up on Village Photos some time ago as their site seems to have become derelict

 

Using another Photos provider, hopefully you can now see the Pics

 

Regards

 

Alan

[BS_w]

P36(H75) & P40(H81)  export airplanes, Curtiss specifications S-516 & 517:

5. DETAIL REQUIREMENTS:

5.52    Interior Metal Parts and Surfaces: the finish for interior(unexposed) parts and surfaces (wings, fuselage, control surfaces) shall consist of one of the following schemes, unless a specific scheme is specified in the contract.
- 5.521    All alclad 24ST used as skin covering for wing, fuselage, tail surfaces, and other parts fabricated in the heat treated conditions to be coated both sides with blue Lionoil shop coating, or equivalent, prior to fabrication and assembly.After assembly all Lionoil exposed on exterior to be removed to leave natural alclad as the exterior finish. Lionoil to be left on the interior.
....
....

- 5.525    The interior of the entire fuselage, and parts enclosed therein to be given one coat of the following mixture to produce uniform and satisfactory appearance:

COCKPIT COATING FORMULA
    One gallon zinc chromate primer
    one-tenth gallon black enamel
    Two gallon of Toluol
    4 ounces aluminium paste

 

 

below, French Hawk 75 A3
 

 

Edited March 18 by BS_w

[FritzNYC]

17 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

 

Given that these aircraft were purchased by the British Air Ministry (not Lend Lease)

I would not be using US Interior Green or Zinc Chromate, as the

Air Ministry/Ministry of Aircraft Production would have specified RAF paint types for the cockpit, albeit

manufactured in the US - Other US paint types were permitted in use (see comment below re wheel wells)

 

The actual colour (IMHO) would be more like this blue/green Interior colour in the this Hudson photo

(Photo used with permission NR Mines)

I have tried mixing the colour, but it takes a bit of getting it right to the Mk I Eyeball

 

Since these were British purchased and you are using Colour Coats, I would

likely use their RAF Cockpit Grey Green - not a pure match, but way closer

than US Interior Green.

For the Wheel wheel wheels I would go with the Curtiss Colour in the photo below

 

That colour can easily be mixed to the "Eye" by mixing Yellow Zinc Chromate and a little Aluminium as

I did in a P40 build previously

 

Hope that's of help?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

I do have the RAF cockpit green in hand, thanks for the help. Could it be that the "Zinc Chromate Green" is meant to represent the Curtiss mixture for the wheel wells? Maybe Jamie from Sovereign could chime in if he sees this.

Edited March 18 by FritzNYC
Expand

[FritzNYC]

I think what I'll try to do is just mix up a batch of the "yellow-green" zinc chromate by starting with a 10:1:1 ratio of yzc, flat black, & aluminum. I read in another forum that (specific to these aircraft) this was applied to both the cockpit and the wheel wells. I have an old empty Model Master glass bottle so will avoid having to mix it up again the next time it's needed.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The posts referring to British-purchased planes seems to be irrelevant to the OP's intentions, if I read right, and you are building one of the AVG Flying Tiger machines. These were absolutely in US spec finishes. Those planes were purchased directly by China. Zinc Chromate likely on all surfaces per your question. BTW, ZC is not a color mixture, but the natural result of its chemical mixture as an etching primer. It was (and is) a primer used on metals that don't take paint well. (Aluminum, stainless steel, brass, etc.)

[mhaselden]

On 5/13/2023 at 11:44 PM, Rusty Shackleford said:

The posts referring to British-purchased planes seems to be irrelevant to the OP's intentions, if I read right, and you are building one of the AVG Flying Tiger machines. These were absolutely in US spec finishes. Those planes were purchased directly by China. Zinc Chromate likely on all surfaces per your question. BTW, ZC is not a color mixture, but the natural result of its chemical mixture as an etching primer. It was (and is) a primer used on metals that don't take paint well. (Aluminum, stainless steel, brass, etc.)

 

Errrr...no.  The AVG long nose P-40s were donated from a British order in exchange for later delivery to the RAF of P-40Es.  They were painted to RAF standards, hence the green/brown camouflage on the upper surfaces rather than OD.  

Edited May 15 by mhaselden

[Graham Boak]

Not to mention the Sky Type S Grey on the underside.

[HBBates]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:44 PM, Rusty Shackleford said:

The posts referring to British-purchased planes seems to be irrelevant to the OP's intentions, if I read right, and you are building one of the AVG Flying Tiger machines. These were absolutely in US spec finishes. Those planes were purchased directly by China. Zinc Chromate likely on all surfaces per your question. BTW, ZC is not a color mixture, but the natural result of its chemical mixture as an etching primer. It was (and is) a primer used on metals that don't take paint well. (Aluminum, stainless steel, brass, etc.)

Not correct ...the AVG aircraft stared from a Britain contract....the one cockpit photo I have is Factory lable as "H-81A2 (China)"....also found on line once a copy a Document signed by Churchill releasing the 100 air frames for China....The Original RAF series numbers for the AVG aircraft is well documented... and just the features of the AVG airframes also are unquie to the RAF contract aircraft vs the US P40 contract ( The camo paint job ...the square back seat... the pitot tube...other various things).... I always recommend the Dupont RAF equivalent colors for the AVG aircraft including the interior.

Edited May 16 by HBBates

[Paul Lucas]

So presumably the interior of the cockpit was finished with 'Cockpit Light Green' DuPont No.71-036?

 

Is this the colour we can see inside the Hudson in the photo posted above?

 

Does anyone have an accurate match for this colour?

 

@LDSModeller, is your mixed colour that you matched to the Hudson interior anything like a colour that can be found in a colour standard or colour system such as FS 595, BS 381C or NCS 1950?

 

If so, would you mind telling us what it is please?

[Buz]

1 hour ago, HBBates said:

Not correct ...the AVG aircraft stared from a Britain contract....the one cockpit photo I have is Factory lable as "H-81A2 (China)"....also found on line once a copy a Document signed by Churchill releasing the 100 air frames for China....The Original RAF series numbers for the AVG aircraft is well documented... and just the features of the AVG airframes also are unquie to the RAF contract aircraft vs the US P40 contract ( The camo paint job ...the square back seat... the pitot tube...other various things).... I always recommend the Dupont RAF equivalent colors for the AVG aircraft including the interior.

Have you seen the full file on the 100 Hawks to China from the UK Archives?   Also not sure about the seats, would need to confirm the batches that had the standard seat, but overall the data is wrong, only the P-40E was USAAC finish.

 

Buz

Edited May 16 by Buz

[Rusty Shackleford]

Basing my response on this, it reads to me that the aircraft were part of a British order that was diverted to China BEFORE delivery to Britain. https://media.defense.gov/2010/Oct/28/2001330217/-1/-1/0/AFD-101028-007.pdf 

(Scroll down to page 9, about midway.) This would indicate they would be wearing colors right from the Curtis factory, would it not?

[mhaselden]

1 hour ago, Rusty Shackleford said:

Basing my response on this, it reads to me that the aircraft were part of a British order that was diverted to China BEFORE delivery to Britain. https://media.defense.gov/2010/Oct/28/2001330217/-1/-1/0/AFD-101028-007.pdf 

(Scroll down to page 9, about midway.) This would indicate they would be wearing colors right from the Curtis factory, would it not?

Yes, that is correct.  They were painted in RAF colours at the factory during construction.

Edited May 16 by mhaselden

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

I do not have the Curtiss Documents to give the exact dates or paints, so the circumstantial evidence, the 100 Tomahawk IIb for China were from the RAF order and built between January and March 1941 (roughly 36, 49 and 15 in each month) probably all exported by end April.  There were 1,180 Tomahawks built, China received 100 between numbers 626 and 880.  (In RAF serial terms 36 between AK466 and AK570, 64 between AM375 and AM519)

 

Curtiss stopped building P-40 for the USAAF in October 1940, then started P-40B production in February 1941, first arrivals at the USAAF on 22 February, P-40C production began in March.  For most of the time of the Chinese order Curtiss was only building Tomahawks.

 

Acceptances,

Jan-41, 153 Tomahawk IIb

Feb-41, 131 Tomahawk IIb, 22 P-40B

Mar-41, 18 Tomahawk IIb, 107 P-40B, 8 P-40C

[Mike Starmer]

One point not mentioned.  The wheel bays of P-40 had a light Olive Drab canvas 'bag' inserted to prevent dirt and insects getting into the wing.  It was retained by fasteners which allow access to systems for servicing.  The picture in this post clearly shows the side sections of the canvas.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Love it! Good gawd, you boys dig deep! Keep me on the straight and narrow...

[Jens]

I read somewhere - probably on HS - that the Curtis cockpit green was much like FS34159. I painted my P-40 cockpits with that colour, and I must say it looks good compared to contemporary colour pictures.

 

Jens

[LDSModeller]

On 5/16/2023 at 5:29 PM, Paul Lucas said:

So presumably the interior of the cockpit was finished with 'Cockpit Light Green' DuPont No.71-036?

 

Is this the colour we can see inside the Hudson in the photo posted above?

 

Does anyone have an accurate match for this colour?

 

@LDSModeller, is your mixed colour that you matched to the Hudson interior anything like a colour that can be found in a colour standard or colour system such as FS 595, BS 381C or NCS 1950?

 

If so, would you mind telling us what it is please?

Hi Paul,

 

The colour I mixed was actually more for a former RNZAF P40E-1 received from

the USAAC October 1942, which was originally from an RAF Lend Lease order, taken over by the US (RAF Code ET449)

This P40E-1 was handed over from the USAAC at Tongatapu, Tonga, October 1942 to RNZAF 15 Squadron,

where it went on to serve in the SW Pacific wearing the RNZAF Serial NZ3094

 

NZ3094

(RNZAF Official - Air Force Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions)

 

This colour photo of NZ3094 shows some what, what the cockpit colour looked like

(photo used permission of NR Mines)

 

This next photo shows it cleaned up some

(Photo used for illustration purposes only)

 

Based on the DuPont colour 71 036 ( no FS or NCS colours that I am aware of - FS didn't exist in WWII anyway)

 

It was mixed from Humbrol paints, as below - not perfect though

 

Regards

 

Alan

[HBBates]

For what it's worth this is a photo I took of a "squareback" (export) seats, top mounting bracket, from an H81A2 Tomahawk recovered from Russia.. So you can see the orginal cockpit color of and export RAF H81 Tomahawk vs the US P40 or the later H87/P40

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/dd135/humebates/.highres/20151106_165315_zpsnf6gh5el.jpg

Edited May 24 by HBBates