Looking for info on 102 squadron Whitley DY-J used for LRASV test radar installation.

[Ngantek]

Bit of a random one here. I'm try to track down any details on a Whitley that was pinched by the Radar Research group of the Air Ministry to be used as a testbed for the sideways-looking 1.5m wavelength long range air to surface vessel radar installation (for Uboat detection). From what I have found this appears to have been done in late 1939 or perhaps (I suspect more likely) in February 1940.

 

The only possible identifier I've found is from this source, which suggests the aircraft had code J-DY / DY-J which, I guess making it ex- 102 squadron, and could be a Mk III or V. An aircraft of those markings landed in Belgium on 8th Sept '39 after a leaflet drop sortie and was eventually lost to bombing; I didn't see any other losses from that squadron until commencement of bombing operations in April '40, which may suggest the 'next' DY-J was the aircraft ultimately used. 

 

I've got very little other information other than after testing, the aircraft ended up at St. Athan on 17th August 1940, where 32 MU and RAE installed similar radar to more Whitleys. (source Airborne Maritime Surveillance Radar, Volume 1: Volume 1, British ASV Radars in WWII 1939-1945 (IOP Concise Physics)) which one can currently read the relevant parts online, amazon 'look inside' for example).

 

Pretty random one there, I don't expect any results, but thought I'd ask. Also don't know whether it was likely to have retained its camouflage and markings during the testing period; and if not what would have replaced them. 

 

Bonus question for 10, I'm unclear which was the first coastal command squadron to use this radar, possibly 502?

 

Thanks for any help!

 

Andy

 

 

 

[rossm]

My web page on Coastal Command Whitleys states 502 was the first squadron to get ASV Mk.II https://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_whitley.asp

 

I haven't noted the source for this.

 

Alfred Price in "Aircraft vs Submarine" states trials with sideways looking aerials in a Whitley were made in summer 1940. This was a modified version od ASV Mk.I and was used in conjunction with ASV Mk.II in service.

 

I'll keep looking but those are my first thoughts.

[Ngantek]

1 hour ago, rossm said:

My web page on Coastal Command Whitleys states 502 was the first squadron to get ASV Mk.II https://hrmtech.com/SIG/coastal_whitley.asp

 

I haven't noted the source for this.

 

Alfred Price in "Aircraft vs Submarine" states trials with sideways looking aerials in a Whitley were made in summer 1940. This was a modified version od ASV Mk.I and was used in conjunction with ASV Mk.II in service.

 

I'll keep looking but those are my first thoughts.

Thanks very much, your site is a great trove of information! I'll be referring back.

 

The info from Alfred Price tallies with what I've found/suspected. The conversion seems to have taken of the order of two months. The specific date of the delivery of the aircraft to St. Athan suggests the source is more than just mere conjecture, so summer '40 sounds about right.

 

Again, without having seen it explicitly stated, the timing made it probable that ASV mk1 was used, so thanks again for that, very helpful!

 

Andy

 

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

There is the assumption the reported dates and units are on the aircraft cards.

 

So far earliest mention of 502 Sqn found, N1392, 9 MU 8 Nov 39, 502 Sqn 4 Sep 40

 

Production for Coastal Command effectively begins with the following, note not all went through 32 MU.
P5010, 32 MU 5 Sep 40, 502 Sqn 7 Oct
P5041, 32 MU 5 Sep 40, 502 Sqn 10 Jan 41
P5045, 6 MU 21 Jun 40, 502 Sqn 3 Sep.
P5050, 32 MU 22 Aug 40, 502 Sqn 28 Sep
P5051, 2, 4, 9, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65

To go looking through the 34 I, 46 II, 80 III, 33 IV, 7 IVa and the early mark V, https://www.lancasterbombers.net/form-78-aircraft-movement-cards/

[Ngantek]

3 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

There is the assumption the reported dates and units are on the aircraft cards.

 

So far earliest mention of 502 Sqn found, N1392, 9 MU 8 Nov 39, 502 Sqn 4 Sep 40

 

Production for Coastal Command effectively begins with the following, note not all went through 32 MU.
P5010, 32 MU 5 Sep 40, 502 Sqn 7 Oct
P5041, 32 MU 5 Sep 40, 502 Sqn 10 Jan 41
P5045, 6 MU 21 Jun 40, 502 Sqn 3 Sep.
P5050, 32 MU 22 Aug 40, 502 Sqn 28 Sep
P5051, 2, 4, 9, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65

To go looking through the 34 I, 46 II, 80 III, 33 IV, 7 IVa and the early mark V, https://www.lancasterbombers.net/form-78-aircraft-movement-cards/

Fantastic info, thank you so much. The form78 resource is wonderful!

 

I've been having a scroll through and noticed this one, which twigged my interest:

 

So my suspicion was that got converted sometime Feb '40 or after. The other source said after testing, it went to 32MU on 17/08/40, which corresponds to allotment to AMDP (I believe means Air Member for Development & Production? I guess meaning it's used to aid further development of 'stuff'), Spec Duty Flt on the 12/7/40. The RAE bit is also interesting, as is this nondescript 'spec duty flight'. It is of course also ex 102 squadron. 

 

Perhaps someone more familiar with form78s can shed more light on all these scribblings?

 

 

A further google search show N1370 turned up at Christchurch at just the right time. And what do we have:

Quote

"B Flight Special Duties Flt ,arrived 8-5-40 renamed Telecommunications Flying Unit(TFU),departed 10 Nov 1941 to Hurn"

It had a forced landing north of the field on 04/07/40.

 

This seems quite compelling to me. Having scrolled through a lot of form78s, all are rather banal in comparison to this one. 

 

Also here is a list of aircraft owned by TFU, including N1370, P4949 (whose form78 doesn't seem to be on the site, but is listed as the Mk VII prototype here, which makes sense given the nature of the V-to VII upgrade).

 

So I think this sounds pretty good evidence of N1370 being the aircraft in question? Thanks very much again for this info!

 

Andy

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

AMDP = Air Member for Development and Production.  Other AMDP Whitley mid 1939 to mid 1940 include K9016, N1345, N1346, N1349, N1350, N1420, N1467, N1468, N1478, N1481 and P4949

 

N1370 was aircraft F in December 1939 and J in February 1940 according to the squadron records. Agreed N1370 is a good candidate, despite no match to the date.  The next stop would be the published histories of the Royal Aircraft Establishment and then the archives, including for 32 MU.

 

P4949 Taken On Charge 6 April 1940, 5 MU date deleted, AMDP 25 Apr, 38 MU 30 Aug, AMDP De Havilland 30 Sep, SOC 4 Dec 43.  The contract card indicates it was ferried from the production line by a De Havilland Pilot, for use in propeller trials.

[rossm]

This is the sort of rabbit hole down which I like to disappear so, after spotting it as a reference in the online source I ordered a copy of "Boffin" by Robert Hanbury Brown, not at the inflated prices on Amazon and abebooks but direct from the Radio Society at a more sensible £12.99. For something written by a scientist it's a bit vague on detail of dates but after a quick scan it's fairly definite that the sideways looking radar aerial was designed before the move to Farnborough in February 1940 and there is a fuzzy photo of a Whitley with the "stickleback" antennae captioned :-

 

Figure 4.2 Long range ASV; the first experimental installation of long range ASV (LRASV) installed in a Whitley at St.Athan late in 1939.

 

The code appears to be J.DY but the serial is invisible.

There is the usual caveat of possible inaccuracy of memory given the book was written many years later.

 

I look forward to reading the whole of the book in the next few days.

[Ngantek]

On 15/03/2023 at 11:54, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

AMDP = Air Member for Development and Production.  Other AMDP Whitley mid 1939 to mid 1940 include K9016, N1345, N1346, N1349, N1350, N1420, N1467, N1468, N1478, N1481 and P4949

 

N1370 was aircraft F in December 1939 and J in February 1940 according to the squadron records. Agreed N1370 is a good candidate, despite no match to the date.  The next stop would be the published histories of the Royal Aircraft Establishment and then the archives, including for 32 MU.

 

P4949 Taken On Charge 6 April 1940, 5 MU date deleted, AMDP 25 Apr, 38 MU 30 Aug, AMDP De Havilland 30 Sep, SOC 4 Dec 43.  The contract card indicates it was ferried from the production line by a De Havilland Pilot, for use in propeller trials.

My apologies, I seem to have missed this post. Thanks very much for the information. It having had the J marking, and later does add more weight to the N1370 argument to me, so that's very helpful. Also lots of potential leads to follow. I'm always amazed what a plethora of information people are able to find about this stuff!

 

 

42 minutes ago, rossm said:

This is the sort of rabbit hole down which I like to disappear

 

Glad I'm not the only one! 'Like' is perhaps strong in my case, 'incapable of not' might be more accurate.

 

42 minutes ago, rossm said:

so, after spotting it as a reference in the online source I ordered a copy of "Boffin" by Robert Hanbury Brown, not at the inflated prices on Amazon and abebooks but direct from the Radio Society at a more sensible £12.99.

Thanks, I too stumbled on this book pretty quickly, but hadn't quite got round to ordering it.

 

42 minutes ago, rossm said:

For something written by a scientist it's a bit vague on detail of dates

As a scientist who works with a lot of other scientists, this sounds absolutely bang on to me!

 

42 minutes ago, rossm said:

but after a quick scan it's fairly definite that the sideways looking radar aerial was designed before the move to Farnborough in February 1940 and there is a fuzzy photo of a Whitley with the "stickleback" antennae captioned :-

 

Figure 4.2 Long range ASV; the first experimental installation of long range ASV (LRASV) installed in a Whitley at St.Athan late in 1939.

 

The code appears to be J.DY but the serial is invisible.

Thanks, I'd seen the late '39 reference in numerous places and the single one to J.DY. I'd strongly suspect then, that this is the source of those references. I guess, given the dates on the form78 and info on L1370's association with Special duty flight/ TFU, there are two options: Either L1370 is the aircraft and the recollection of installation date is off (which doesn't necessarily mean the design of the aerial date is off), or there was an earlier Whitley, also of 102 squadron, that was perhaps used as an earlier test installation. I suppose the third possibility is that the photo of the aircraft is the later Whitely (very likely L1370), but doesn't match the caption of this possible 'earlier' aircraft. 

 

42 minutes ago, rossm said:

There is the usual caveat of possible inaccuracy of memory given the book was written many years later.

 

I look forward to reading the whole of the book in the next few days.

So do I! thanks very much for posting, that's a great help!

 

Andy