8th Armoured Brigade (Staffs Yeomanry), late 1942 - which tanks, which schemes?

[Harrypotter]

I was hoping to tap into the vast pools of knowledge that exist on this fine forum

 

For family reasons I have ad desire to model at least 1 tank from the Staffordshire Yeomanry during the role they played in the North Africa campaign.

 

I'd also like to gather some information about the likely colour schemes involved.

 

Naturally I've tried doing my homework but a good deal of the information & links I've been chasing seems to be either a) contradictory or b) defunct on the web.

 

So around the time of 2nd El Alamein I'm thinking Grants, maybe the odd Sherman and some Crusaders were likely to have been in use?

 

If so was it likely to be both Grant I & II's?

 

For Crusaders would they have likely been MK II or III's or both?

 

Finally - colour schemes  Light Stone, with possibly Slate Black as camo?

 

Also, on Grants, where you can see the light colour eroding and the colour underneath showing through, what colour would this have been?

 

Thanks in advance - hopefully I've not stirred up too much controversy with these questions

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Harrypotter

[Bullbasket]

Just a couple that I've come across, but others can probably give you more detail.

Grant Mk.l Sherman Mk.ll.

 

John.

[John Tapsell]

Depends on the time period - Crusaders initially and then gradually moved over to M3s and M4s. At the time of Alamein, most of 8th AB seem to have two 'heavy' Squadrons with M3 and a single 'light' Sqn with Crusaders. M4s would have been introduced as a full Sqn as far as I'm aware (not piecemeal). However, each Regt seems to have decided independently which Sqn had the Crusaders, so it wasn't consistent.

 

Crusaders - both II and III intermixed. Typical arrangement was a II as the Troop Leader's tank because of the four-man crew. However, unreliability often meant crews operated different tanks depending on what was actually working.

 

It's not Staffs Yeo but I strongly recommend reading Alamein to Zem Zem by Keith Douglas. He was a Troop Leader with the Sherwood Rangers (also 8th AB) during the same period. He wrote it just after returning to the UK in late '43 or early '44 but it wasn't published until after his death on 9th(?) June 1944 in Normandy.

 

All these images are captioned as Staffs Yeo.

The officer with Montgomery is Lt Col James Eadie, the Staffs Yeo commander (aka the Sales Director for Bass Breweries before the war) so this is almost certainly an HQ Sqn tank.

The crew in the middle picture are 'badged' as Staffs Yeo.

The bottom picture is usually captioned as Staffs Yeo vehicles and the '86' AoS would tend to confirm that

 

 

 

 

 

[Kingsman]

By Alamein, Grant IIs were probably in the majority compared to Grant I.  But few photos show the rear so it is really hard to tell.  A counterweight on the 75mm gun is a good clue as few if any Grant Is had it and most if not all Grant IIs did.  Pressed steel wheels rather than spoked might be another clue - at least to late Baldwin production, the only source of Grant IIs.  Neither is 100% definitive.

 

429 Grant Is were delivered to N Africa compared to 228 Grant II, but the Grant IIs were the final 4 months' production Apr-July 42 and would mostly have arrived very close together in about July - Oct.  Just in time to replenish losses for Alamein.  Many Grant Is had been lost, hence still using Crusaders to plug the gaps.  But with early and superior Shermans arriving at about the same time the majority of Grant IIs seem to have been held back as replacements rather than issued out.  Some were certainly deployed and lost in action: Minutia has a photo of a KO'd one at a collecting point in Nov - after Alamein.

 

It was permissible to simply paint a disruptive pattern of Light Stone - or maybe Desert Pink by then - over the base OD without full repainting, as a substitute for the theatre Dark Green.  If there was a rush on to field new tanks then this seems likely.

[Slackbladder]

Not sure if you've seen this pic of a Sherman with the Staffordshire Yeomanry in north Africa, from the National Brewery Centre Archives, with BASS written on the side, and appears to be a two-tone camo running through the turret. So definitely at least one Sherman on the books. Having Tripoli 88km to the right on the sign would suggest after Alamein and on the way to Tunisia. Also on the sign from what I can make out is Beni Ulid 92km to the left, which is also known now as Bani Waled on maps. This could suggest the photo was taken somewhere around Tarhunah in Libya.

 

         

 

 

Just found this taken next to the same sign post by the looks of it, so seems I was right about the location.

 

     Sgt Drennan was No.1 Army Film and Photo Section.

 

And a nice film here from the Imperial War Museum with lots of shots of the various tanks and camo schemes.  https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/2531

 

At 4 mins 30 it starts talking about Tarhunah with shots of various Grants and a Crusader, then some more Shermans along the roadside as the movie follows the convoy to Tripoli.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Slackbladder
spelling

[Kingsman]

Have you considered contacting the Staffs Yeomanry Museum?  Not that far from you.

https://staffordshireyeomanrymuseum.com/regimental-history-1

 

[John Tapsell]

8 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Have you considered contacting the Staffs Yeomanry Museum?  Not that far from you.

https://staffordshireyeomanrymuseum.com/regimental-history-1

 

I've visited the museum a couple of times. It's on the top floor/attic of the Ancient High House. Unfortunately, it is not a large place and there are no permanent staff on site.  They have published quite a good WWII history of the regiment (A4 paperback format by Maj D F Underhill) - I picked mine up from the shop on the ground floor of the Ancient High House a few years ago - it's run by Stafford Borough Council as a heritage centre.

 

Their regimental War Diary is very detailed - far more so than many other war diaries (there are copies available for study at The National Archives in London, The Tank Museum and at the local Staffordshire Archives Service in Eastgate Street, Stafford - you'd need to book appointments at any of these repositories to view their resources). The National Archives copy has (if I remember correctly) some additional monthly returns for personnel and vehicle allocations included in the folder, but don't quote me on that!

[Mike Starmer]

I would doubt kingsman's comment regarding the practice of adding a lighter sand colour over Olive Drab.   When the AFVs and other vehicles arrived in Egypt they were all dispatched to Tel-el-Kebir depot which dealt with almost all US made equipments.  As part of the preparations for desert use, in accordance with the current camouflage policy, these were all totally repainted with the current overall basic colour.  As of December 1941 this was Light Stone or Portland Stone in some instances to exhaust obsolete stocks.   As of October 1942, Desert Pink came into general use.  The specified  disruptive patterns were applied before issue.  After October where AFVs had been issued in a single colour mobile camouflage squads were dispatched to apply the required disruptive patterning.  Not all AFVs were actually treated so before the Alamein battles began.   

 

The practice of applying a lighter colour over Olive Drab did not come into use until May 1943 for the Italian campaign, when that practice was written into the MEGO 693 June 1943

 

Responsibilities.

4. (a) All new and repaired vehicles and equipments will be painted in accordance with this order before being issued from ordnance parks.

 

In order to save paint during this shortage, when vehicles arrive in MIDDLE EAST painted in dark U.K. colours, the dark colours will be left and the light mud will be applied as shown on the appropriate diagrams. On no account, however, will the issue of a vehicle be held up due to lack of appropriate paint.

(b) Field force units will arrange the painting of vehicles and equipments in accordance with this order. Demands for paint and diagrams will be made though normal ordnance channels.

(c) Vehicles and equipment referred to in para.2 (c) will be painted only when passing through base workshops or when repainting of the vehicles becomes necessary.

[Kingsman]

Mike is of course absolutely correct.  I had completely failed to take note of the implementation date for leaving the base colour partly unpainted.  Next lesson: reading.......🙁