Late war Focke Wulf Fw 190 D colours

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I know that the lower parts of the wings were left unpainted with only the rudders painted in the blue variation of RLM76 but was the lower part of the fuselage of Focke Wulf Fw 190 D also unpainted or was it in the fuselage colour like on late war Messerschmitt Bf 109?

 

Thank you very much

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Graham Boak]

Only the rear part of the wing was left unpainted, but just what happened to the rest varied with both where and when it was built.  It isn't possible to make simple assumptions other than yes, the fuselage would probably be painted differently than the wings because they were built by different subcontractors.  The two JAPO books on the subject go into the differences very thoroughly, although not always giving the same answers as in Jerry Crandall's works on the type.  Perhaps, if we knew which example you want to make, we could find an answer - so unit/number/werkenummer please?

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Thank you very much for the answer!

I have not decided which version to built as I have a Eduard Fw 190 D-9,D-11 and a D-13.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I understand that the D-13 is fairly well recorded, but I'm not so sure about the D-11 other than that it will definitely be one of the very late options, and as there weren't many of them it could be easier to determine (perhaps!).  The D-9 however is very varied.

[Troy Smith]

46 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

I have a Eduard Fw 190 D-9,D-11 and a D-13.

The Eduard D-11 and D-13 scheme options are based on the JaPo and Crandall books, more likely JaPo as both are Czech. 

I have the Eduard D-11/D-13 combo and those schemes are based  on images in JaPo.  I don't have the Crandall books. I only have the JaPo as I got very very lucky and got them cheap.

IIRC there are two D-13 scheme documented, and six D-11 schemes,  the Papagei staffel, and other from a specific training unit, 61>> is one, 

 

The Eduard D-9 instructions are likely to be based on the same sources,   but as the D-9 was widely built, by many firms, there are many variations.  JaPo have tried to tie indistinctive features in the camo and markings to specific batches, and extrapolate from that.

 

So, ask specifically about what D-9 you want to check what the books say.

I'll @SafetyDadas he has both JaPo and Crandall.

[Giampiero Piva]

It seems to me that the camouflage schemes proposed in the IBG kit instructions are inspired by JaPo books, but sometimes with different interpretations, which do not always coincide with what is written in the two JaPo volumes.

HTH

Giampiero Piva

[GiampieroSilvestri]

According to wikipedia only 366 Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-9 were built of which 252 by Focke Wulf at Bremen,73 by Mimetall at Erfurt and 41 by Fieseler at Kassel.From what I found searching the internet there were seven Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-11,five Fw 190 D-12 and two Fw 190 D-13.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited March 10 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Troy Smith]

33 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

According to wikipedia only 366 Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-9 were built of which 252 by Focke Wulf at Bremen,73 by Mimetall at Erfurt and 41 by Fieseler at Kassel.

the JaPo book go into fine detail, and they were built both other companies as well, from memory JaPo identify 7 or 8 different undersurface patterns from different batches and factories, as well as other identifiers,  upper surface paterns and colours, size and position of crosses, working from photos with clear werk nummer, and then spotting these detail on other photos.

This info is just not on the internet in any detail at all.  

 

Note the Eduard D-11/D-13 combo instructions say "according to some sources more than 1,800 Fw190D were built"  which sounds about right, it was one of the main types being produced in late 44 /early 45

 

here https://www.eduard.com/out/media/8185.pdf

 

33 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

From what I found searching the internet there were seven Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-11,five Fw 190 D-12 and two Fw 190 D-13.

That sounds very wrong.  five Fw190D-12 maybe, as I never seen an example of one in operational unit,  there may only be five photographed D-11 and Two photographed D-13,  but I think more were made. Not vast amounts,  but enough they were in use.

Again, the instructions say "Out of over a thousand ordered D-13s, only 17 were built, and only a handful reached combat units."

 

Again, the Eduard D-11/D-13 dual combo has 

D-11's x 3

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

D-13

 

and yellow 10 after capture 

 

the instructions note only two D-13 are photographically documented.  

 

 

Sorry, I really can't be bothered to go an dig out the JaPo books right now, but they are some of the most mind bendingly detailed books I have ever seen on any aviation subject, they fact they are long OOP and stupidly expensive on the second hand market is tragedy.

 

Again, as @Graham Boak suggests,  just ask about any specific subject(s), if using the kit decals,  they are in one of the books.

[Ray_W]

I recalled this one while digging out images to weather the underside of my current Fw 190A-8 build. I find it useful in terms of the huge underside variation for late war subjects.

 

 

In lieu of any better information, wrapping the side fuselage colour around the underside is a safe bet. The question is whether the underside skinning was finished different ahead of the foot step as arrowed. Unpainted metal? Different colour? Streaked rear fuselage colour? I suppose it depends where the fuselage subcontractor stopped in terms of their supply. When I built my Dora, I thought it reasonable to go with Eduard's interpretation.

 

Ray

[Ray_W]

Just adding to my previous post and why the underside panel may of had a different treatment is this image. However, it still seems logical that the fuselage sub-contractor would finish it with the main fuselage assembly. If it came with the wing then possibly the wing underside finish and NMF would be a candidate.

 

 

 

 

Ray

[GiampieroSilvestri]

13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

the JaPo book go into fine detail, and they were built both other companies as well, from memory JaPo identify 7 or 8 different undersurface patterns from different batches and factories, as well as other identifiers,  upper surface paterns and colours, size and position of crosses, working from photos with clear werk nummer, and then spotting these detail on other photos.

This info is just not on the internet in any detail at all.  

 

Note the Eduard D-11/D-13 combo instructions say "according to some sources more than 1,800 Fw190D were built"  which sounds about right, it was one of the main types being produced in late 44 /early 45

 

here https://www.eduard.com/out/media/8185.pdf

 

That sounds very wrong.  five Fw190D-12 maybe, as I never seen an example of one in operational unit,  there may only be five photographed D-11 and Two photographed D-13,  but I think more were made. Not vast amounts,  but enough they were in use.

Again, the instructions say "Out of over a thousand ordered D-13s, only 17 were built, and only a handful reached combat units."

 

Again, the Eduard D-11/D-13 dual combo has 

D-11's x 3

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

D-13

 

and yellow 10 after capture 

 

the instructions note only two D-13 are photographically documented.  

 

 

Sorry, I really can't be bothered to go an dig out the JaPo books right now, but they are some of the most mind bendingly detailed books I have ever seen on any aviation subject, they fact they are long OOP and stupidly expensive on the second hand market is tragedy.

 

Again, as @Graham Boak suggests,  just ask about any specific subject(s), if using the kit decals,  they are in one of the books.

Thank you very much for the answer!As very often wikipedia is not correct.Here is a Link to a list with all the production numbers of all Focke Wulf Fw 190 versions built with werknummern.

 

https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Fw190-R.htm

 

It lists 1.Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-9=674

          2.Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-10=1

          3.Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-11=8

          4.Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-12=4

          5.Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-13=1 known werknummer 350168,other werknummern not known

          6.Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-14=2

          7.Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-15=1

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited March 11 by GiampieroSilvestri

[MDriskill]

This detailed table of Fw 190D construction, showing manufacturers, production totals, dates, and serials assigned, is in JaPo's Fw 190D Camouflage and Markings. As with all late German aircraft, the first two digits of the serial indicate the manufacturer and model: 21 = FW [Focke Wulf] D-9; 40 = WFG [Roland] D-9; 50 = MME [Mimetall] D-9; 60 = GFW [Fieseler] D-9; 22 = FW D-11; 83 = WFG D-13.

 

And back to the original question, this remarkable variety of underside schemes has been documented on the Dora (note, JaPo here shows the darker upper side color wrapping under the wing; Mr. Crandall's books often show RLM 75 gray beneath):

 

Veering off-topic just a little, this thread devoted to the Fw 190F-8 underside photo which is posted above may be of interest. It's a remarkably clear shot, with an astonishing amount of detail:

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/interesting-late-war-fw-190-undersides-t527152.html

 

Edited March 12 by MDriskill

[SafetyDad]

@GiampieroSilvestri

 

I really can't add anything to what has already been said here without knowing the Wk Nr of the specific aircraft that you have in mind. The information already supplied above by @MDriskill mirrors exactly what I would have uploaded, and gives you an excellent oversight of the complexity of the subject under discussion here. Crandall and JaPo have covered 190D camouflage and markings in great detail, they don't always agree, but they offer sufficient information to allow the reader to choose. 

 

If you have a specific colour or markings scheme in mind, then pitch in and we can take the discussion further.

 

HTH

 

SD

[GiampieroSilvestri]

22 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

@GiampieroSilvestri

 

I really can't add anything to what has already been said here without knowing the Wk Nr of the specific aircraft that you have in mind. The information already supplied above by @MDriskill mirrors exactly what I would have uploaded, and gives you an excellent oversight of the complexity of the subject under discussion here. Crandall and JaPo have covered 190D camouflage and markings in great detail, they don't always agree, but they offer sufficient information to allow the reader to choose. 

 

If you have a specific colour or markings scheme in mind, then pitch in and we can take the discussion further.

 

HTH

 

SD

Thank you very much!

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[MDriskill]

As a matter of general interest, this book published late last year takes Fw 190 color analysis, to - literally - another level.

 

Late in the war, the Fw 190's major sub-assemblies (central fuselage, wing, engine/cowl, tail section, tailplanes, and large access panels) were usually painted where they were built. This book looks at aircraft assembled by Norddeutschen Dornier Werk (NDW). Each facility of this consortium and its products are described; then each sub-assembly traced to its source(s), and its finish analyzed. Quite a few wartime documents and some previously unpublished photos are included.

 

Future volumes covering radial-engine Fw 190's from Arado, Fieseler, and AGO are noted on the back cover.

 

Edited March 12 by MDriskill

[11bravo]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:35 AM, MDriskill said:

As a matter of general interest, this book published late last year takes Fw 190 color analysis, to - literally - another level.

 

Late in the war, the Fw 190's major sub-assemblies (central fuselage, wing, engine/cowl, tail section, tailplanes, and large access panels) were usually painted where they were built. This book looks at aircraft assembled by Norddeutschen Dornier Werk (NDW). Each facility of this consortium and its products are described; then each sub-assembly traced to its source(s), and its finish analyzed. Quite a few wartime documents and some previously unpublished photos are included.

 

Future volumes covering radial-engine Fw 190's from Arado, Fieseler, and AGO are noted on the back cover.

 

This is a pretty decent (and very reasonably priced) book.   It takes "deep dive" to another level.   That being said there are a few things that give me pause.   The author continually mentions RLM83, which I thought by now was uniformly regarded as a dark blue that was never used on fighter aircraft.   He also talks about a late-war "middle grey" version of RLM75 which I've never heard of before.   Regardless, given the price and the large number of pictures (most of which I've never seen before) and profiles, it's worth picking this one up.  

[Bozothenutter]

There's a set of the JaPo books on the 'bay from an Italian seller.

A mere snip at €360

[tempestfan]

2 hours ago, 11bravo said:

This is a pretty decent (and very reasonably priced) book.   It takes "deep dive" to another level.   That being said there are a few things that give me pause.   The author continually mentions RLM83, which I thought by now was uniformly regarded as a dark blue that was never used on fighter aircraft.   He also talks about a late-war "middle grey" version of RLM75 which I've never heard of before.   Regardless, given the price and the large number of pictures (most of which I've never seen before) and profiles, it's worth picking this one up.  

I admit I have problems with books calling themselves „ultimate“. There are some from a certain author in the US on US types that - simply aren’t.

As regards 83, I am no Luftwaffe paint expert, but as you say, the only documentary evidence for any 83 appears to be what Michael Ullmann has unearthed, namely the Mediterranean Dunkelblau. As far as I gather it, the 83 green (whatever shade) comes from the fact that there seemingly was a Braunviolett, a Dark/Olive Green and a Medium/Bright Green, so they had to be 81/82/83, in whatever order.

32 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

There's a set of the JaPo books on the 'bay from an Italian seller.

A mere snip at €360

So you want to make me feel good that I „only“ paid €250 for my set? Well, I am fairly good at Autosuggestion, so arrived at the same conclusion But kidding aside, those books are great. 
And even if his emphasis is different, I guess Axel Urbanke‘s book is essential reading on this topic.

@GiampieroSilvestri, will you go to Lingen in two weeks? I plan and hope to be there, but there are some circumstances beyond my control.

[Werdna]

17 hours ago, 11bravo said:

 He also talks about a late-war "middle grey" version of RLM75 which I've never heard of before. 

 

I've not read about any 'late war variation' of RLM75 either - but 'middle grey', or 'mittelgrau' was (as far as I'm aware) just another name given to the 75 colour alongside 'grauviolett' (and probably others too), depending on which particular source the paint came from, especially given that the RLM never actually ascribed names to any of their colours - only numbers.  RLM75 was a medium gray in any case, so I don't think referring to it as 'middle grey' would be any kind of departure...  

[GiampieroSilvestri]

On 12/03/2023 at 21:00, tempestfan said:

I admit I have problems with books calling themselves „ultimate“. There are some from a certain author in the US on US types that - simply aren’t.

As regards 83, I am no Luftwaffe paint expert, but as you say, the only documentary evidence for any 83 appears to be what Michael Ullmann has unearthed, namely the Mediterranean Dunkelblau. As far as I gather it, the 83 green (whatever shade) comes from the fact that there seemingly was a Braunviolett, a Dark/Olive Green and a Medium/Bright Green, so they had to be 81/82/83, in whatever order.

So you want to make me feel good that I „only“ paid €250 for my set? Well, I am fairly good at Autosuggestion, so arrived at the same conclusion But kidding aside, those books are great. 
And even if his emphasis is different, I guess Axel Urbanke‘s book is essential reading on this topic.

@GiampieroSilvestri, will you go to Lingen in two weeks? I plan and hope to be there, but there are some circumstances beyond my control.

Leider Nein!

Lingen im Emsland ist ein Stück zu weit weg.

 

Gruss

 

Giampiero

[tempestfan]

1 hour ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Leider Nein!

Lingen im Emsland ist ein Stück zu weit weg.

 

Gruss

 

Giampiero

What a pity! It usually is a really good show. And it's only 350km from you, all via Autobahn

Grüße

Claus