Bren Carrier used by aircraft maintenance crews in Normandy, or elsewhere, any references?

[Antoine]

Hi there, 

it's been quite a long time since I asked a completely silly question on the forum, so I thought maybe today could be appropriate to have another try!

 

Sometime ago, I did get a tamiya Beaufighter, in a special box, together with a Bren Carrier Mk.II. This box:

 

th 

 

At the time, all I wanted was the Beau, and it was the only one around.

I was NOT interested by the Bren Carrier.

 

I started the Beau since, and was set to resell the carrier alone, but then, I thought that I might as well keep it for a small diorama with another aircraft.

 

So far I've found only one picture showing a Malta Carrier towing a train of bombs for Wellingtons, but I've a preference for fighters.

 

So the questions are:

 

- Would it be possible to find a bren carrier around a Typhoon, say, on a landing ground in Normandy, or much latter in the campaign?

And I mean, not a bren carrier from an infantry unit, or embarked in a glider, but one in service with the ground crew.

 

- If it's indeed possible, any direction toward a good source of documentation (paper or internet) will be appreciated.

 

Thanks a lot!

 

[Kingsman]

Well it wouldn't be a Bren Carrier for a start as they were mostly lost in France before Dunkirk and the few left in the UK didn't last long before they were replaced by the new Universal Carrier.  The Universal Carrier replaced the 3 previous Bren, Scout and Cavalry Carriers with a single design and the Bren Carrier was never seen again.  Although the Universal Carrier is commonly and wrongly still called the Bren Carrier.😁

 

The RAF Regiment in NW Europe are universally photographed with wheeled armoured vehicles for forward airfield capture and protection.  Same in N Africa with the Armoured Car Companies.  I can't find anything to say that a Field or AA Squadron would have had Universal Carriers, but it is probably not impossible.  Many of the forward airfields became very wet during the winter of 44-45 as they were mostly grass laid with steel matting for the runways.  So it is conceivable that if a Regiment Squadron protecting an airfield had any Carriers with little else useful to do that they might have been pressed into service as tractors.  But that is an entirely un-evidenced swag.  I can't see an Army Carrier being anywhere near an airfield: the RAF Regiment was formed to relieve the Army of protecting airfields.  And the Army and RAF operated separate supply systems.  Burma would be another un-evidenced possibility: again, I can't find any evidence of any of the 30 Field and AA Squadrons or 3 Armoured Car Companies in the Far East having Carriers.

 

These 2 relatively famous IWM photos of a Humber LRC of 2777 Sqn in Holland shows Typhoons of 257 Sqn only about 25m behind.  So the Regiment did get quite close to aircraft operating areas.  And it looks pretty wet here, although that could just be the light.

 

[Antoine]

Thanks a lot for this, mate!

You're educating me!

I should have known about difference between bren & universal carrier...

 

So the door is still open for an educated guess, I think.

I always go by the saying, absence of proof is not proof of the absence!

 

There's currently a typhoon on the bench, That'll certainly build as one of J. Baldwin's aircraft during his time as No.123 wing leader in early 1945, and I think it's the perfect choice for a diorama with the carrier.

 

What about a scrounged Army vehicle?

Which camo would it be, then?

[Graham Boak]

It's difficult to see what value it would be, you could carry more in a 15cwt truck and they might be easier to come by.  As for absence of proof - there's no proof that a Typhoon squadron didn't use a Bergepanther either!

[PLC1966]

So I am guessing you are really looking at Carriers being used by the Ground Crew on advanced airfields, RAF Servicing Commando's I think were the guys you want to look into.

[modelldoc]

Found this:

"Wheels of the RAF by Bruce Robertson, Patrick Stephens, Cambridge 1983:

 

page 156 chapter 18 - The RAF Regiment vehicles:

... The famous Bren-gun Carrier as it was popularly called, official the Carrier Universal, was used by the Regiment and was also supplied to the RAF Levies in Iraq, where it continued in use until their disbandment in 1955,,,,

Unfortunately no pictures from the Carrier in the book.

 

modelldoc  

[Circloy]

4 hours ago, modelldoc said:

Found this:

"Wheels of the RAF by Bruce Robertson, Patrick Stephens, Cambridge 1983:

 

page 156 chapter 18 - The RAF Regiment vehicles:

... The famous Bren-gun Carrier as it was popularly called, official the Carrier Universal, was used by the Regiment and was also supplied to the RAF Levies in Iraq, where it continued in use until their disbandment in 1955,,,,

Unfortunately no pictures from the Carrier in the book.

 

modelldoc  

Missed that reference as it's not included in the index.

 

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It's difficult to see what value it would be, you could carry more in a 15cwt truck and they might be easier to come by.  As for absence of proof - there's no proof that a Typhoon squadron didn't use a Bergepanther either!

in the paragraph prior to the above quote a reference is made to AEC mk1 , Marmon Herrington, GM Otter mk1 armoured cars along with captured German (Auto Union) & Italian (Lancia). Suppose that with the spoils of war almost anything becomes possible.

[Graham Boak]

Indeed, but the RAF Regiment would not be involved with, or close to, the servicing/rearmament etc of the aircraft.  As a load carrier for the use of ground crew it would be pretty ineffectual.  The role of the regiment was mainly manning the Bofors around the airfield and general security duties.  However, I was mainly using humour to point out the low actual value of the saying in such cases.

[Antoine]

9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It's difficult to see what value it would be, you could carry more in a 15cwt truck and they might be easier to come by.  As for absence of proof - there's no proof that a Typhoon squadron didn't use a Bergepanther either!

I'd have a thought about that, but my problem here is the proof of the absence of a bergepanther kit in 1/48! At least AFAIK.

😜

[Antoine]

8 hours ago, PLC1966 said:

So I am guessing you are really looking at Carriers being used by the Ground Crew on advanced airfields, RAF Servicing Commando's I think were the guys you want to look into.

 

Indeed!

I did know about the units, but I forgot the name!

Thanks for the correction.

[Solexman]

There’s always rule No.1 ?

[John Tapsell]

2 hours ago, Circloy said:

in the paragraph prior to the above quote a reference is made to AEC mk1 , Marmon Herrington, GM Otter mk1 armoured cars along with captured German (Auto Union) & Italian (Lancia). Suppose that with the spoils of war almost anything becomes possible.

The Auto Unions (SDKFZ 222 - two of them) were used by No.2 Armoured Car Company (ACC)  who were most definitely not part of the RAF Regiment.

 

The RAF Armoured Car Companies pre-dated the RAF Regt by 20+ years and fought tooth and nail to avoid being assimilated into it (I think they were eventually absorbed in the late 1940s).

 

The AECs were tested by No.2 ACC and not adopted - so again, not RAF Regt.

 

When the RAF Regt was created, their Establishment included Armoured Car Squadrons and the variety of armoured cars they used was much smaller and more consistent - generally Otters and Light Humbers and some Alvis Strausslers early on (also used by the ACCs)

[Grey Beema]

Being a Fleet Air Arm modeller I don’t really have to deal with wheeled or tracked aircraft tugs.

 

WITH THE FLEET AIR ARM IN INDIA, JUNE 1944. © IWM (A 24291) IWM Non Commercial License

[Pete in Lincs]

The Army captured the land that the Airfields were built on. 

If a carrier, for example, broke down, it would be abandoned for later recovery.

So if the RAF moved in and the carrier 'disappeared' to be fixed up by the ground crew for their use around said Airfield*....

The Army salvage crew woud just put it down as, Oh well, couldn't find it. I imagine they'd run well on 100 Octane fuel.

*Why walk when you can ride ? Any easy way to carry Ammunition boxes, tools etc. Jeeps, for example, were easy targets for 'borrowing'.

[modelling minion]

Well the Germans certainly used them as can be seen here on the Eastern front;

 

🇺🇦

[dcrfan]

I started a scratch build of a NZ Army Lloyd carrier and received feedback that this individual believed that the original order included a number for the RNZAF fitted out as slave battery carriers for aircraft starting on soft grass airfields. I've never seen or read any collaborating evidence of this asertion. If it was true did the idea come from the RAF?

[Solexman]

5 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

Being a Fleet Air Arm modeller I don’t really have to deal with wheeled or tracked aircraft tugs.

 

WITH THE FLEET AIR ARM IN INDIA, JUNE 1944. © IWM (A 24291) IWM Non Commercial License

See? There's a prototype for EVERYTHING! 🤣

[Tim R-T-C]

I did research this issue for a recent build of a 2TAF Spitfire XIV in Belgium and after scouring every photo I could find of the period I didn't see a single carrier sadly.

 

The Soviets also used them as did the French in postwar Indochine, but again no photos I have yet found of them as airfield service vehicles sadly.

 

Following with interest if any do emerge as I have a couple of lovely 3d printed carriers that would look great on an airfield!

[Antoine]

2 hours ago, Tim R-T-C said:

The Soviets also used them as did the French in postwar Indochine, but again no photos I have yet found of them as airfield service vehicles sadly.

 

Yes you're right, I forgot about Indochina. Yet I'm pretty sure they did belong to the Army.

But you never know, I'll check my references.

[Solexman]

6 hours ago, Tim R-T-C said:

I did research this issue for a recent build of a 2TAF Spitfire XIV in Belgium and after scouring every photo I could find of the period I didn't see a single carrier sadly.

 

The Soviets also used them as did the French in postwar Indochine, but again no photos I have yet found of them as airfield service vehicles sadly.

 

Following with interest if any do emerge as I have a couple of lovely 3d printed carriers that would look great on an airfield!

Do it anyway. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. 
Im sure lots of ad hoc situations arose in many areas. Men and women making do as best they could. There was a war going on after all? 😂

[Antoine]

10-53...

Ouch, sorry guys!