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Fairchild factory colours - late 1930s


Vingtor

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It was common among American aircraft manufacturers in the interwar period to have their own factory colours. I am trying to find information on the yellow and blue colours used by Fairchild in the late 1930s, supposedly called Fairchild Yellow and Fairchild Blue. Especially matches to NCS or FS would be great.

 

From 1940 Fairchild supplied the USAAC with PT-19 and PT-26 Cornell primary trainers, also painted yellow and blue. This was probably the USAAC Spec. 3-1 colours Yellow 4 and Light Blue 23, not the Fairchild colours.

 

Can anybody spread some light on this...?

 

Nils

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7 hours ago, Vingtor said:

 

 

Can anybody spread some light on this...?

 

Nils

Fairchild Blue and Yellow were the colours used on the base model of Fairchild 24. Not heard of a specific Fairchild Yellow, but the blue was a light metallic blue, more like a car colour than an aircraft paint . Most customers of the 24 seem to have opted for the more expensive 2-tone Raymond Loewy-styled paint scheme, which came in many colour combos.

 

The PT-19 was not painted in those old USAAC shades, which had been replaced by the rationalised ANA

(Army-Navy Aircraft) standard by this time. Thus the Light Blue 23 was replaced by USN True Blue and the Yellow 4 by the USN Orange Yellow (actually less orange than Yellow 4). Those were the colours used on the PT-19....

 

 

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7 hours ago, Vingtor said:

It was common among American aircraft manufacturers in the interwar period to have their own factory colours. 

Partially true.....only on cheaper light aircraft usually. More expensive types usually were custom colour combinations.

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Thanks for your reply. I am actually researching the Cornells operated by the Norwegians in Canada. These aircraft were painted similarly as the USAAC aircraft, but with a blue fin. As can be seen on many photos, several shades of blue (and possibly yellow) were used:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Spirit_littlenorway_cc0.jpg

https://premium.vgc.no/v2/images/1f6526ee-91a9-45f9-a577-a50a899575b9?fit=crop&format=auto&h=1078&w=1600&s=ecc4c6dcbb29abe7991e40c9bc344dbb86e9074c

 

I was wondering if Fairchild Blue could have been one of them, but apparently not.

 

The first deliveries of PT-19s in August/September 1940 had a rather pale blue. Possibly Light Blue 23.

 

Nils

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Light Blue 23 changed several times during the 1930s, so not a straightforward subject. First version was pale  and more turquoise, but faded badly. This was replaced by a stronger, more medium blue, but different to the subsequent True Blue, which was finally used. Dana Bell has made posts about this.

 

Your photos show the different coatings used on fabric (dope) and metal (enamel) parts of the aircraft. No doubt this has been increased by different rates of weathering.

 

Also, the first Fairchild trainers were built for civilian training schools as M-62s, not PT-19s, so were probably painted using civil colours, which may have been the nearest equivalents to the military colours. Not sure if the Norwegian planes were some of these.

But definitely no Fairchild Blue ...

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On 3/5/2023 at 6:13 AM, Vingtor said:

It was common among American aircraft manufacturers in the interwar period to have their own factory colours. I am trying to find information on the yellow and blue colours used by Fairchild in the late 1930s, supposedly called Fairchild Yellow and Fairchild Blue. Especially matches to NCS or FS would be great.

 

Nils

I have an actual paint sample of the 'Fairchild Blue'.

It's a dope in the Berryloid range, produced by Berry Bros.

This color chip is most likely from around 1930.

It is a medium blue with a slight iridescence cast.

This iridescence was most likely achieved by mixing a small amount of very fine aluminum powder into the colored dope.

I can find no sample of a 'Fairchild Yellow' amongst my 100's of civil aircraft color charts from the 1930s.

I suspect that the 'Fairchild Yellow' most likely was simply a commonly used yellow of the period, perhaps the widely used 'Loening Yellow'.

 

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On 3/6/2023 at 10:54 AM, Roger Holden said:

Also, the first Fairchild trainers were built for civilian training schools as M-62s, not PT-19s, so were probably painted using civil colours, which may have been the nearest equivalents to the military colours. Not sure if the Norwegian planes were some of these.

 

The fist batches of aircraft to the Norwegians were M-62s (pre PT-19). Subsequent deliveries were PT-19s (I think), and lend-lease PT-26s. This complicates the question a bit, since different paint standards might have been used. It is the first deliveries of M-62s that is on my mind right now.

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1 hour ago, VH-USB said:

I have an actual paint sample of the 'Fairchild Blue'.

It's a dope in the Berryloid range, produced by Berry Bros.

This color chip is most likely from around 1930.

It is a medium blue with a slight iridescence cast.

This iridescence was most likely achieved by mixing a small amount of very fine aluminum powder into the colored dope.

I can find no sample of a 'Fairchild Yellow' amongst my 100's of civil aircraft color charts from the 1930s.

I suspect that the 'Fairchild Yellow' most likely was simply a commonly used yellow of the period, perhaps the widely used 'Loening Yellow'.

 

 

I found a colour chart on the net for the Berryloid range. The Fairchild Blue seems a bit too dark for the Cornells, possibly.

https://assets.isu.pub/document-structure/200922192903-b7195f6676f109ae25227ddd35f886b1/v1/bf52201394a7ee36f544f2947a35879e.jpg

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19 hours ago, Vingtor said:

 

I found a colour chart on the net for the Berryloid range. The Fairchild Blue seems a bit too dark for the Cornells, possibly.

https://assets.isu.pub/document-structure/200922192903-b7195f6676f109ae25227ddd35f886b1/v1/bf52201394a7ee36f544f2947a35879e.jpg

I have numerous copies of this Berryloid color chart in my collection. It's from the later 1930s.

On my monitor the scan at your URL appears a bit lighter than the actual paint chip of 'Fairchild Blue'.

So if the scan appears too dark for your purpose, the actual color will definitely be too dark.

 

Tim

 

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Be very cautious when using the color charts in this issue of 'Skyways'.

I have discussed this topic here a fair number of years ago in a thread about the exact colors used on the Gee Bee R-1/2.

The Berryloid color chart in this issue of 'Skyways' is from around 1940-42, all the other color charts appear to be from the 1960s and the 1970s.

And I strongly doubt that obtaining the FAA Aircraft Records will help with colors as they almost never mention colors, and in the rare instance they do it's merely in generic terms.

The Smithsonian National Air & Space Museum does hold the Fairchild Archives but you'd need to access these in-person at the museum research library...

Fairchild Industries, Inc. collection | National Air and Space Museum (si.edu)

 

Tim

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Thanks Roger, Tim & Blimpyboy for valuable input. Unfortunately I have been too busy the last few days to comment on your replies. And I am going away for the weekend (skiing in Austria). Please let me come back to the topic over the weekend.

 

Apart from the Cornells, the Norwegian traning base in Canada also operated a couple of Interstate Cadets and some Stinson Reliants in the blue/yellow scheme. I hope to find out which shades of blue and yellow, if possible.

 

Nils

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On 3/8/2023 at 5:45 PM, VH-USB said:

I have numerous copies of this Berryloid color chart in my collection. It's from the later 1930s.

 

 

A small digression to my original question. The Norwegians also operated a single Waco SRE in Canada. According to an article in IPMS (USA) Quarterly many years ago, this was painted in Loening Yellow with Fokker Red trim (outlined in black). I have found these colours on similar illustrations on the net. But images of colour charts are unfortunately not accurate. From your originals/copies colour charts, could you possibly find a match of these two colours to "modern" paint standards? I prefer NCS, but FS or CMYK would help a lot.

 

Now, where did I put my ski goggles....?

 

Nils

 

 

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2 hours ago, Vingtor said:

 

 

Apart from the Cornells, the Norwegian traning base in Canada also operated a couple of Interstate Cadets 

The blue/yellow scheme was one of the 2 standard factory paint schemes on the Interstate Cadet, not surprising as many were used by the CPT scheme in civilian flying schools.

 

Curiously, I am currently building that exact same Waco SRE, based on the terribly inaccurate Execuform vacform and much scratch building. However, it will be in the markings of its original owner, aviation radio magnate Bill Lear.

 

Fokker Red is an almost dead match to US Insignia Red, widely available in model paints. There was an old Testors paint (Bright Yellow) which matched Loening Yellow, but it's no longer produced.

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6 hours ago, VH-USB said:

And I strongly doubt that obtaining the FAA Aircraft Records will help with colors as they almost never mention colors, and in the rare instance they do it's merely in generic terms.

The airworthiness documents (inspection and maintenance records) contained in the FAA’s aircraft record file will occasionally mention exact colors, based on my examination of some 2,700 files of Cessna T-50 records.

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7 hours ago, Roger Holden said:

The blue/yellow scheme was one of the 2 standard factory paint schemes on the Interstate Cadet, not surprising as many were used by the CPT scheme in civilian flying schools.

 

CPT scheme ...?

 

Any idea about which shades of blue and yellow for Interstate Cadet?

 

Nils

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2 hours ago, Vingtor said:

CPT scheme ...?

 

Any idea about which shades of blue and yellow for Interstate Cadet?

 

Nils

CPT - Civilian Pilot Training. The US government contracted civilian pilot schools to provide initial training as the military didn't have the capacity. Several planes were designed specifically for that programme, including the Interstate Cadet and Aeronca Defender.

 

Don't know the precise colours, but they are obviously similar to the Army shades. You would

need the factory paperwork to know that. (That is the reason those Waco SRE colours are known precisely....)

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16 hours ago, Vingtor said:

 

A small digression to my original question. The Norwegians also operated a single Waco SRE in Canada. According to an article in IPMS (USA) Quarterly many years ago, this was painted in Loening Yellow with Fokker Red trim (outlined in black). I have found these colours on similar illustrations on the net. But images of colour charts are unfortunately not accurate. From your originals/copies colour charts, could you possibly find a match of these two colours to "modern" paint standards? I prefer NCS, but FS or CMYK would help a lot.

 

 

Nils,

 

I do not have the NCS color system but can match to FS, BS, And Pantone.

The Berryloid 'Fokker Red and 'Loening Yellow' are very common colors from the 1930s.

For reference, Amelia Earhart's trans-atlantic Vega, which is preserved in the NASM, is painted 'Fokker Red'.

 

Tim

 

 

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15 hours ago, dogsbody said:

I've got this Berryloid Paint Chart:

 

52737466944_b7a7c9a15c_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

Chris

This Berryloid color chart is from 1935 and it's a scan I made decades ago and can be found on the 'Lockheed File' website...

CONSOLIDATED BLUE - The Lockheed File (adastron.com)

The original is not actual paint but is printed in CMYK, so is an approximation of the actual paint colors.

I believe 1935 is the only year Berryloid used 4-color process for their paint charts.

All other years I have in my collection, and there are many, are actual paint chips.

 

Tim

 

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Finally back from Austria with all my legs and arms intact…

 

Here is some additional information on the Norwegian Cornells.

 

The RNAF placed 7 orders of totally 40 M-62As between July 1940 and September 1941. The aircraft were delivered directly from Fairchild, Hagerstown between August 1940 and November 1941. The 10 first aircraft were not originally fitted with cockpit hood but had these later retrofitted. RNAF # 101-171 (note that the Army Air Arm had odd numbers while the Navy had even). I assume that these aircraft were painted in civilian colours.

 

50 PT-26 were taken from USAAF contracts and delivered on Lend-Lease terms from August 1942. The requisitions can be described as follows:

1.       Requisitions NW-21 of 10 February 1942 and NW-1001 of 4 August 1942

10 PT-26-FA. MAP serial numbers in the FH series. RNAF # 173-191.

2.       Requisition NW-1067 of 18 June 1943

20 PT-26B-FE. MAP serial numbers in the FZ series. RNAF # 193-231.

3.       Requisition NW-1095 of 16 February 1944

11 PT-26-FA. MAP serial numbers in the EW series. RNAF # 233-253.

7 PT-26B-FE. MAP serial numbers in the FZ series. RNAF # 255-267.

2 PT-26A-FE. MAP serial numbers in the FV series. RNAF # 269-271.

At least some of the aircraft (maybe all) were delivered in an all-yellow paint scheme with Canadian insignia and serial numbers. This would assumedly have been a US “equivalent” of MAP Yellow. The fuselage and fin appear to have been painted blue after delivery to the Norwegian training camp in Canada. For which shade of blue, I can only guess…

 

Nils

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On 3/10/2023 at 4:39 PM, VH-USB said:

I do not have the NCS color system but can match to FS, BS, And Pantone.

The Berryloid 'Fokker Red and 'Loening Yellow' are very common colors from the 1930s.

For reference, Amelia Earhart's trans-atlantic Vega, which is preserved in the NASM, is painted 'Fokker Red'.

 

Tim

 

 

 

Here is a profile that I am working on (plan views will follow). I assume that the red trim is too much orange. Matches to FS and/or Pantone would be most welcome.

 

spacer.png

Nils

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47 minutes ago, Vingtor said:

 

At least some of the aircraft (maybe all) were delivered in an all-yellow paint scheme with Canadian insignia and serial numbers. This would assumedly have been a US “equivalent” of MAP Yellow. The fuselage and fin appear to have been painted blue after delivery to the Norwegian training camp in Canada. For which shade of blue, I can only guess…

Hi Nils,

 

I have a 1941 Titanine Canada aircraft color chart which contains a color chip of an 'R.C.A.F. Yellow'.

Fairchild may have matched this color with an US equivalent, as you suggest, as the 'R.C.A.F. Yellow' appears to be similar to the US 'Army-Navy Yellow'.

I will match these color to each other and see if they are basically identical.

 

Tim

 

 

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If I remember it correctly, this image was scanned from one of my old, WW2 era National Geographic magazines:

 

52450717632_56b4098b11_b.jpg

 

 

 

I don't remember where I found this one:

 

52451686295_3c779ba841_b.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

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2 hours ago, dogsbody said:

If I remember it correctly, this image was scanned from one of my old, WW2 era National Geographic magazines:

 

Both are well known photos. Fortunately there are lots of colour photos from the Norwegian training camp in Canada. Here is the same photo from the Norwegian Digital Archives:

https://digitaltmuseum.no/011012728027/skolefly-av-type-fairchild-pt-26-cornell-oppstilt-utenfor-hangar/media?slide=0

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