Emil Lang FW-190A-5 7+- camouflage

[Giorgio N]

Thanks everybody for the many answers ! And have to say I'm glad my question raised an interesting discussion, even if I'm aware that these aircraft have been discussed before...

 

I will make a few random comments on the many interesting points raised by those who posted here, right now however I want to focus on an aspect for which there's likely no certain answer, that is the pattern:

 

On 2/28/2023 at 3:08 PM, Tail-Dragon said:

A bigger problem will be the camo pattern on the wings, I tried for a long time to find some photo that would even hint at that, and these were the best I could come up with ...

 

 rather than enter a state of "paralysis by analysis", I bit the bullet and came up with this ...

 

 

 

 

First of all, very nice model ! Then, I feel that your pattern makes a lot of sense. Afterall the pattern on the fuselage seems to be based on bands of various width, why should the wing have used a very different pattern (like the one suggested by Eduard in the Grunherz box instructions). I may "steal" this pattern for my model if you don't mind !

 

Now for some random comments...

 

Luftwaffe fighters using green and brown schemes: there have sure been other cases of these. JG.5 had a number of 109Fs camouflaged using green and brown, the explanation here being that these were aircraft originally meant for North Africa that ended up in Norway where they received two other colours over the brown (here likely RLM 79).

Aircraft in grey and green were also seen in Italy in 1944, both Bf.109Gs and Fw.190Fs. Colours for these seem to have been quite close to the ones visible in the pictures of JG.54 Bf.109s posted above.
And of course there's been examples of such colours used over Russia...

I had never heard of aircraft in such schemes being seen over France, but at this point I'm really open to every possibility.

 

The different yellows: this is quite visible in pictures of JG.54 aircraft and is one aspect I will reproduce on my model. Now I don't know if they were actually two different yellows or they differed because they were applied at different times over different surfaces in different ways. At least for Lang's aircraft, the new colours seem to have been applied over the existing camouflage for the reason that areas of the original 76 on the fuselage are visible. Were the yellow areas around the fuselage cross and on the tail repainted after the new camouflage was applied ? I such a case it's entirely possible that the difference with yellow under the cowling would be due to the repainting process rather than to the use of a different type of yellow.

 

RLM 25 for the lighter green: entirely possible, at least on 11+ the colour of the heart and the lighter camo green look very close. On Lang's aircraft however the heart is IMHO somewhat visible against the camo colours, so it was probably in a different light green. I'm now tending toward applying the green heart after having spent some time on the picture in the Luftwaffe at War book (that I should try to scan and post here... not easy because of the format of the book). If the heart was in 25, then the lighter camo green, at least on 7+-, could be the old RLM 62 or something not too far from that

 

Were these tests for the later RLM 81 and 82 ? I'm now not so sure...

Ullmann posted these findings in this other forum;

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33949

Now he also mentions the possibility of these colours having been tested by JG.54, however from the documents he found it sounds to me that 81 and 82 were supposed to replace 70 and 71. If these were colours supposed to be used on bombers, why test them on fighters ? Unless there were tests into a darker scheme specific for fighters of which we don't know anything yet. Of course it is possible that they were tested on fighters because units in Russia were asking for a darker and greener camouflage...

Have to say that the timeframe is right, with these colours having been tested apparently in the same 1943 when JG.54 aircraft wore these apparent green/green/brown schemes.

 

I'll post some more random thoughts as they come to my mind... not that I think I can add much to what is being written here, more to throw questions that may lead to some more interesting answers

Edited March 3, 2023 by Giorgio N

[JWM]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:26 PM, Kari Lumppio said:

especially darker brown looked like French (Brun Mat, http://memorial.flight.free.fr/nuancier.html ). But what do I know. Wild imagination?

The French camo was my first associacion also... Could it be an inspiration? 

BTW on display in Krakow museum pf aviation there is a BMW engine (from FW 190A likely)  with some bright greenish color beyond any expectations for me 

J-W

[Paul Lucas]

Yes, it does look to be an unusual colour, but it is a museum exhibit. Is this the original finish that dates from circa 1945 or is what we see here a finish that has been applied subsequently as part of the conservation/display process?

 

Regards,

Paul.

[Paul Lucas]

On 03/03/2023 at 17:43, Graham Boak said:

There is a better explanation, that it was part of an official trials using (at least in part) the prewar colours and leading to the late war ones.

 

Your comments appear largely to be based on either wartime reports from fragmentary visual sighting under difficult conditions from stressed aircrew (as a comparison, He.113s anyone?), or trying to guess colours from poor quality wartime photos.  We can all do and have done that, but the value to others is slim - just at times there is no other way.  We have to model something, and at times this does blot out the entire field of aviation outside offering alternatives.

 

It would be interesting to know what comments Luftwaffe pilots made about the camouflages in RAF aircraft they encountered in combat, I suggest that they would have been every bit as imprecise.

 

 

Is this a better explanation though?

Exactly what primary source information is the official camouflage trial idea based on?

 

Is there any at all, or is this an example of an idea being proposed some forty years or so ago that sought to offer an explanation for an unusual scheme that lay outside the then current sphere of knowledge that has subsequently been repeated so often that it has now hardened into historical 'fact' like 'Sky Type S' and 'Type B' roundels?

 

Yes, my comments are based entirely on the primary source documents that I quoted, and I agree that they are limited in the ways suggested. I do have a number of reports that deal with the camouflage schemes of He.113s, so I am not unaware of the potential pitfalls of these kinds of reports.

 

They are however, what I have, and to the best of my knowledge they are not widely known about. I thought that they were worth mentioning in this context as they suggest that some sort of green and brown scheme was in use on the Channel Front some two years before these photographs were taken and that there might therefore be an alternative explanation for the schemes shown in the photograph.

 

I agree that it would be very interesting to know what Luftwaffe intelligence reports said about RAF colour schemes and I agree they would have been just as imprecise. Pale green Spitfires, blue Spitfires, pink Spitfires, purple Spitfires... But would they be able to tell the difference between green and brown Spitfires and green and grey Spitfires, or whether they were actually Hurricanes? 

 

I suspect that we will never know, unless there is a treasure trove of such documents sitting in the stacks of the Russian State Archive in Moscow awaiting discovery and someone actually goes looking for them...

 

Regards,

Paul.

 

 

 

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    My thoughts are the archives in Finland, a few years back on a discussion board ( can't remember which one ) someone posted links to a couple of detailed german crash reports ( photos & drawings ) on allied aircraft in france 

 

 a pressurised spitfire & a raf allison engined mustang, at least if i recall correctly

 

  so maybe there maybe info on lufwaffe camo in the archives there if germany shared documents in WW2 ?

 

 

    cheers

       jerry

Edited March 5, 2023 by brewerjerry

[Jochen Barett]

On 03/03/2023 at 22:46, Giorgio N said:

Thanks everybody for the many answers !

+++

Ullmann posted these findings in this other forum;

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33949

Now he also mentions the possibility of these colours having been tested by JG.54, however from the documents he found it sounds to me that 81 and 82 were supposed to replace 70 and 71.

+++

I love that thread, especially this post

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpost.php?p=166631&postcount=28

 

"The green color used on the Russian front, was John Deere Green.
Yes, that is correct.
The Russians had bought numerous supplies of tractors and military equipment manufactured by John Deere FROM the US. They were also supplied with the correct paint (John Deere Green).
Repairs and cam jobs DONE in Russia, were completed with RUSSIAN technology. This is why we find IMPERIAL (not metric) screws and fitting on repair jobs on German wrecks found in Russia.
The Germans were not using RLM spec colors - they were using what was on hand in Russia. In this case, captured Russian materials and paints.
John Deere Green is the exact color that was found on the Fw190 that is with the Flying Heritage collection and is now flying. It is also the exact paint they used when painting her during the restoration.
So these early aircraft were not using a "new" paint - just what was on hand at the time - in this case, John Deere Green..."

 

I couldn't come up with any better explanation for the lighter of the greens.

 

And following the thread to the last page we get a reminder to a great repository of BIOS reports

https://www.cdvandt.org/fiat-cios-bios.htm

including one (365) on the chemistry of "German Aircraft Paints" and 397 on "AGFA Colour Negative and Positive".

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

 

Lighter, brighter green on Lw planes. Ikarol 201 primer?

 

Cheers, 

Kari

[Giorgio N]

11 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

I love that thread, especially this post

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpost.php?p=166631&postcount=28

 

"The green color used on the Russian front, was John Deere Green.
Yes, that is correct.
The Russians had bought numerous supplies of tractors and military equipment manufactured by John Deere FROM the US. They were also supplied with the correct paint (John Deere Green).
Repairs and cam jobs DONE in Russia, were completed with RUSSIAN technology. This is why we find IMPERIAL (not metric) screws and fitting on repair jobs on German wrecks found in Russia.
The Germans were not using RLM spec colors - they were using what was on hand in Russia. In this case, captured Russian materials and paints.
John Deere Green is the exact color that was found on the Fw190 that is with the Flying Heritage collection and is now flying. It is also the exact paint they used when painting her during the restoration.
So these early aircraft were not using a "new" paint - just what was on hand at the time - in this case, John Deere Green..."

 

I couldn't come up with any better explanation for the lighter of the greens.

 

And following the thread to the last page we get a reminder to a great repository of BIOS reports

https://www.cdvandt.org/fiat-cios-bios.htm

including one (365) on the chemistry of "German Aircraft Paints" and 397 on "AGFA Colour Negative and Positive".

 

That post however IMHO does not get all things right, for a number of reasons.

The Soviet Union may have well bought plenty of stuff from John Deere, no problem with that. They would have also bought paint directly from the same source for the same equipment. However, was this paint aircraft grade paint ? We know that the Soviet Union was perfectly capable of making paints for various applications, including paints for tractors and similar machinery and paint for aircraft. Even more, they had lines of paint for aircraft with different chemical specifications aimed at different materials. So why should the Luftwaffe have used "tractor paint" when they sure also captured aircraft grade paint ?

Now the author of the post may have meant John Deere green as a colour, not a paint, in that case it may be that the green used on Soviet aircraft was derived for some reason from this paint, maybe they just saw it was working well as a camo paint as well. I'll leave this to those with knowledge of Soviet camouflage practices to comment on this.

 

One other reason is that these JG.54 aircraft sported a 3-colour camo scheme, where did the other two colours come from ? Can we link the brown to any paint in Soviet use ? Not military aircraft paint for sure ! Moreover, brown was used by Luftwaffe aircraft in other areas, did the Germans have access to captured Soviet brown everywhere ? Well, sure not in Italy in 1944 and likely not in Finland, where brown appeared in the camouflage of locally based Luftwaffe aircraft so we have to consider that one or more browns would have been available for camouflage purpose... and we know for sure one such colour was RLM 79 ! A number of Bf.109F-4 trop were issued to units on the Eastern front (I/JG.3 and II/Jg.5) and these sported camouflage schemes achieved by adding other colours onto the aircraft original desert scheme.

The darkest colour is generally quoted to have be RLM 70, a standard German colour that however was likely not as available in the same quantities as say RLM 74 for a fighter unit... but would have sure been plenty available at maintenance center and would have been easily obtained through the proper channels.

So we have one colour that was 99.9% of German origin, one of unknown origin and one coming from captured Soviet stocks ? Hmmm... I don't know...

 

Back to the John Deer green, looking at the few pictures I've found of that recovered aircraft I can say that sure, looks close to greens I've seen on John Deer tractors. At the same time it does also look not so different from the green used on Soviet aircraft of the era. But also looks pretty close to RLM 62 | And more, the Italians used a very similar green in the pre-Tavola 10 days... Could have been any of them as all could have been available or made available somewhere on the Eastern front

[tempestfan]

I an not quite sure what to make with the "imperial" remark in the quote above - as far as I'm aware, the Soviet Union had been metricised for some time, at least in the technical sector. Any imperial stuff would be from the US of UK.

[warhawk]

6 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

I an not quite sure what to make with the "imperial" remark in the quote above - as far as I'm aware, the Soviet Union had been metricised for some time, at least in the technical sector.

 

Agree, even the aircraft engines licensed from 'imperial' countries were re-engineered to metric standards.

 

Not sure if 'well, Soviets bought a looot of tractor paint' should be relevant to Fw190 cammo discussion at all.

JG54 were indeed free to experiment, but I doubt that freedom extended to 'Hans, see what's in that shed and just slap it on' improvisation...

[Jochen Barett]

22 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

That post however IMHO does not get all things right, for a number of reasons.

+++

 

So far I hesitate to trust anyhing found all over the entire www regarding the JG 54 three color camo scheme.

 

One "conclusion" I could feel comfortable with is: Cowling yellow was RLM 04, Bands and tail marking RLM 27. But I would not claim to "know" anything.

 

RLM 79 for the brown is "in the box thinking". Nothing wrong with that, but in case my Kommodore tells me (the painter) to come up with a brown camo color representing the dark earth found in the area and a grassier green (and I was a painter in my civilian life before the war, that's the reason why I ended up in the Luftwaffe painting planes) and I'm deep in occupied Russie, I'd rather use my skills and imagination (mixing existing paints) and material at hand (German, maybe looted stocks, maybe from Italian friends) than reply "Maybe we can order some RLM 79 along the usual supply chain and get it next year".

 

On the other hand many pictures published in those day received color treatment and some "minor editing" to obscure tactical markings.

 

I'll continue staring at the pictures

 

 

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Could it be that like with the Messerschmitt Bf 109s of JG5 Eismeer based at Petsamo (now Petschenga) and Alakurtti the aircraft of JG54 had to be delivered to the mediterranean but were sent to the Eastern Front?

So the aircraft were painted in standard RLM79 Sandbraun with RLM80 Olivgrün and the lower part in RLM78 Hellblau?

A internet search came up with that Luftwaffe aircraft in the mediterranean were also painted in Italian colours giallo mimetico 3,verde mimetico 3 with the lower part in grigio mimetico.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited March 6, 2023 by GiampieroSilvestri

[tempestfan]

Not sure about Trop 190s, but I think at least those (relatively few?) employed in Africa had the external dust filters on the cowling bulges, which are not present here. Up to when were planes painted in desert camou? The African adventure was over in May '43, if I'm not mistaken.

[SafetyDad]

22 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

Is this a better explanation though?

Exactly what primary source information is the official camouflage trial idea based on?

 

Is there any at all, or is this an example of an idea being proposed some forty years or so ago that sought to offer an explanation for an unusual scheme that lay outside the then current sphere of knowledge that has subsequently been repeated so often that it has now hardened into historical 'fact' like 'Sky Type S' and 'Type B' roundels?

 

 

I fully agree with your request for the evidence Paul - you are correct to state that some statements acquire the solidity of seeming to be fact if they are cited and repeated often enough. Not helpful. 

 

Merrick offers a combination of evidence to support his statement - some drawn from a downed JG54 Fw190 recovered from Russia, and some discussion and reasoning based upon the colour photographs we've been debating within this thread. 

 

So no primary source for the camouflage trial idea, but primary evidence for the colours themselves. 

 

From here - more recent than 40 years ago - and following my usual pattern where the information is uploaded entirely for the purpose of study/research and is intentionally slightly distorted to  discourage further replication.

 

 

Here are Merrick's thoughts on the colour trials idea that I mentioned above, plus the analysis of the colours found on the Russian Fw190. He stresses the need for the RLM to be involved in the employment of (then) obsolete colours on this scale.

 

 

 

and his views on one of the pictures already posted above

 

 

So, in summary, Merrick suggests that JG54 were using the older colours RLM61, 62 and 64 and that these would eventually be re-employed as the late-war colours 81, 82 and 83 following these tests in Russia. He also suggests that RLM79 and 80 were part of the trial - presumably these colours were deemed less successful after trials as they were not integrated into the so called late-war defensive scheme?

 

I'm not suggesting the evidence is definitive, merely stating that his idea has some merit. And, as Jochen and I have already said, at least we have the pictures to study and to ponder over.

 

HTH

 

SD

[Ingo Ritz]

1 hour ago, SafetyDad said:

 

I fully agree with your request for the evidence Paul - you are correct to state that some statements acquire the solidity of seeming to be fact if they are cited and repeated often enough. Not helpful. 

 

Merrick offers a combination of evidence to support his statement - some drawn from a downed JG54 Fw190 recovered from Russia, and some discussion and reasoning based upon the colour photographs we've been debating within this thread. 

 

So no primary source for the camouflage trial idea, but primary evidence for the colours themselves. 

 

From here - more recent than 40 years ago - and following my usual pattern where the information is uploaded entirely for the purpose of study/research and is intentionally slightly distorted to  discourage further replication.

 

 

Here are Merrick's thoughts on the colour trials idea that I mentioned above, plus the analysis of the colours found on the Russian Fw190. He stresses the need for the RLM to be involved in the employment of (then) obsolete colours on this scale.

 

 

 

and his views on one of the pictures already posted above

 

 

So, in summary, Merrick suggests that JG54 were using the older colours RLM61, 62 and 64 and that these would eventually be re-employed as the late-war colours 81, 82 and 83 following these tests in Russia. He also suggests that RLM79 and 80 were part of the trial - presumably these colours were deemed less successful after trials as they were not integrated into the so called late-war defensive scheme?

 

I'm not suggesting the evidence is definitive, merely stating that his idea has some merit. And, as Jochen and I have already said, at least we have the pictures to study and to ponder over.

 

HTH

 

SD

 

There now exits ample documentation that RLM 81 and 82 were developed to replace RLM 70 and 71.  RLM 83 was developed for use in the Mediterranean and has been documented as blue.  There is absolutely no connection with RLM 61, 62 and 64

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I cannot remember where but many years ago I read that some Staffelkommandeure made a flight around the airfield they were based to look at the colours of the surroundings and let the ground personell mix the colours available to look like the colours of the landscape.If this is true I can't say.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited March 6, 2023 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Jochen Barett]

5 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

I cannot remember where but many years ago I read that some Staffelkommandeure made a flight around the airfield they were based to look at the colours of the surroundings and let the ground personell mix the colours available to look like the colours of the landscape.If this is true I can't say.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Search your books on the Ta 152 and if you can't find it there, extend the search to your Fw 190D literature.

[SafetyDad]

13 hours ago, Ingo Ritz said:

 

There now exits ample documentation that RLM 81 and 82 were developed to replace RLM 70 and 71.  RLM 83 was developed for use in the Mediterranean and has been documented as blue.  There is absolutely no connection with RLM 61, 62 and 64

 

I'm very aware of the RLM 83 blue controversy, and personally I no longer use the terms 82 and 83 (at least without an accompanying descriptor) as I find these unhelpful, given the variations in them (and people's views about them). Light green and dark green is less confusing (at least for me). I would also agree that the development of the late war colours to replace 70 and 71 is well established.

 

Merrick is offering some insights here into how he feels the late war colours were developed and tested. I took care in my post above to stress that Merrick's ideas were just that, ideas, and not necessarily definitive.

 

I would be interested to see your evidence to support the final part of your statement above, namely that 'There is absolutely no connection with RLM 61, 62 and 64'

I'm quite prepared to be convinced if an alternative hypothesis is out there.

 

SD

 

 

[Giorgio N]

19 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Not sure about Trop 190s, but I think at least those (relatively few?) employed in Africa had the external dust filters on the cowling bulges, which are not present here. Up to when were planes painted in desert camou? The African adventure was over in May '43, if I'm not mistaken.

 

The Bf.109F trop that went to Russia and Finland did not reach their final assignment in a tropicalised form. When it was decided they were surplus to the needs of the North African theatre, they were sent to a centre in Germany where at least part of the tropical equipment (the filter) was removed. Something similar would have occurred in case the same happened to the Fw.190s.

Said that, I doubt that the JG.54 machines were originally painted in tropical colours for use in the MTO.

[Giorgio N]

20 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Could it be that like with the Messerschmitt Bf 109s of JG5 Eismeer based at Petsamo (now Petschenga) and Alakurtti the aircraft of JG54 had to be delivered to the mediterranean but were sent to the Eastern Front?

So the aircraft were painted in standard RLM79 Sandbraun with RLM80 Olivgrün and the lower part in RLM78 Hellblau?

A internet search came up with that Luftwaffe aircraft in the mediterranean were also painted in Italian colours giallo mimetico 3,verde mimetico 3 with the lower part in grigio mimetico.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

As written above, I doubt that these aircraft were originally meant for the Mediterranean theatre. Of course only by checking the proper documents it would be possible to be sure.

 

Regarding the use of Italian paints by Luftwaffe aircraft in the MTO, it's entirely possible, however I have some doubts about many of these. The use of Grigio Mimetico in particular would be quite puzzling, why use the Italian grey when the existing Luftwaffe blues would have been equally adequate ?

[Ingo Ritz]

Official documentation of RLM 83 is in Sammelmitteilung 2, dated 15 August 1944, where it is listed among other dark shades, and in an earlier RLM report dated November 1943, announcing the introduction of RLM 83 Dunkel Blau as a camouflage color.  This document  indicates  RLM 82 should be used in conjunction with RLM 72 for seaplanes and RLM 70 for land based aircraft operating in the Mediterranean.

 

Prior to the above mentioned documentation there were RLM messages documenting the development of a camouflage scheme exclusively for the Mediterranean Sea.   For this purpose a new dunkel blau was developed and tested.  During the development phase this color was identified as 300/III and after acceptance as RLM 83 Dunkel Blau. See final entry in the document below.

 

 

 

RLM 81/82 were developed to replace colors 70/71 because the earlier colors faded to gray diminishing their effectiveness as camouflage.  On July 1, 1944  another Sammemmittielung was published directing the use of 81/82 in place of 70/71. 

 

Clearly there is no connection of RLM 81/82 with RLM 83. 

 

The idea that RLM 61/62/64 were resurrected does not make much sense to me. If the intention was to redeploy the old colors why give them new numerical designations?    Merrick's analysis of the photo is speculation at best, but where the supporting evidence?

[Giorgio N]

22 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

So far I hesitate to trust anyhing found all over the entire www regarding the JG 54 three color camo scheme.

 

One "conclusion" I could feel comfortable with is: Cowling yellow was RLM 04, Bands and tail marking RLM 27. But I would not claim to "know" anything.

 

RLM 79 for the brown is "in the box thinking". Nothing wrong with that, but in case my Kommodore tells me (the painter) to come up with a brown camo color representing the dark earth found in the area and a grassier green (and I was a painter in my civilian life before the war, that's the reason why I ended up in the Luftwaffe painting planes) and I'm deep in occupied Russie, I'd rather use my skills and imagination (mixing existing paints) and material at hand (German, maybe looted stocks, maybe from Italian friends) than reply "Maybe we can order some RLM 79 along the usual supply chain and get it next year".

 

On the other hand many pictures published in those day received color treatment and some "minor editing" to obscure tactical markings.

 

I'll continue staring at the pictures

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem here is that whoever is in charge would ask to paint not one aircraft but a whole unit ! Would the unit have enough paint for the job or would they have to receive paints anyway ? I'm not familiar with the way the Luftwaffe operated in this regard, would be interesting to know if a unit had paint supplies for touch-ups only or if it was common to have stocks of paints to repaint every aircraft.

Comments on the logistics of things can also be applied to the availability of captured stocks: was JG.54 in those days located in areas where stocks of Russian paints had been found ? If not, they would have had to request such paints from somewhere else. Same for Italian paints, a Luftwaffe unit on a Regia Aeronautica airport in Italy would have had access to Italian paints, but in the middle of Russia ? Only if they were based in the proximity of an Italian unit... and even so, the Italian unit would have not jsut given up their paint stocks to help the German ally, they would have done so only if instructed by higher commands (or threatened by the Germans, that happened to the army during the retreat from Russia but there's no record of similar problems in the air force).

[Giorgio N]

I have finally managed to find a way to show the picture in Griehl's book. Best I could find was to take a picture of the page, reason why the picture is quite distorted... the colours however are decently visible

 

 

This print is better than the one I linked at the start of the thread in several aspects and a few more things are visible.

One is that the green heart can be seen more clearly. This seems to be in a lighter green compared to the camouflage colour around it, meaning that the heart colour and the lighter camo green are not the same

The brown colour does not seem particularly dark, see for example the area below the canopy where the brown shares an edge with the darker green. However the brown also seems to have been sprayed on the sides in 76, the apparent tone may well have been affected simply by how dense this coat was.

Of course interesting is the cowling, with traces of the undelying 76. And the yellow under the cowling again looks much darker than the same colour used around the fuselage cross (same as in the other pictures)

Last but not least, there seems to be a hint of a band camouflage over the wings, Unfortunately this is affected by a strong light so very little is actually visible...

[Graham Boak]

Merrick did not base his comments on analysis of a photo (though I'm sure he was aware of them all) but on direct inspection of an actual aircraft in Russian storage, still in original colours.  I think this trumps all speculation or denial, but also does not explain all the variations seen in colour photos.  The equivalence with the late colours is a comment/assumption based on their similarity rather than anything demonstrated in documentation.

 

One reason for not using the original colour numbers/names is that with the materials available in Germany in the mid-40s it may be, as seems likely, simply not possible to regenerate the exact shades, so new colour charts would be required anyway.  Shame that they never appeared/survived.  Nazi Germany had many and increasing shortages of specific minerals, oils, etc.  

 

I'm pleased to see 83 Dark Blue confirmed in official documentation, but if 81 Olive brown and "83" Dark green were simply variations of the same colour, it does not make sense to see them together on a single  production line.

 

 

[Jochen Barett]

57 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

I have finally managed to find a way to show the picture in Griehl's book. Best I could find was to take a picture of the page, reason why the picture is quite distorted... the colours however are decently visible

 

 

This print is better than the one I linked at the start of the thread in several aspects and a few more things are visible.

One is that the green heart can be seen more clearly. This seems to be in a lighter green compared to the camouflage colour around it, meaning that the heart colour and the lighter camo green are not the same

The brown colour does not seem particularly dark, see for example the area below the canopy where the brown shares an edge with the darker green. However the brown also seems to have been sprayed on the sides in 76, the apparent tone may well have been affected simply by how dense this coat was.

Of course interesting is the cowling, with traces of the undelying 76. And the yellow under the cowling again looks much darker than the same colour used around the fuselage cross (same as in the other pictures)

Last but not least, there seems to be a hint of a band camouflage over the wings, Unfortunately this is affected by a strong light so very little is actually visible...

 

You could sell that as "stripes of 79 over regular 74/75 plus a second green heart and 74 repair paint in the cowling" to me any time.

And the "regular" green heart has a rather fuzzy edge.