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The age old problem.


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@Mike. I don't think that it matters a jot, how many times you tell the new membership (and even sometimes, members who have been on BM for longer), that this is NOT for modelling queries, some fish will slip through the net. The fact that it happens time after time suggests to  me that people just don't read the rules. If they did, then why would they still do it? So in an effort to stop this, I'd like to make a suggestion. Feel free to (politely) shoot it down if it's unworkable (I'm not tech minded). New members are not permitted to post in the Buy & Sell threads until they have reached 100 posts, so going along similar lines, is it possible to set something up whereby before you can post anything on BM, you have to have read the rules with regards to making requests for information regarding modelling. Then at the end of the rules there could be something to click on to say that you've read and understood them, similar to when you sign up to some websites. I know that you will always get the one who just scrolls through and clicks at the end without reading them, but they can't then say that they were unaware. Then once they've read and understood, they would be free to join in.

As I said, I'm not tech minded so there are probably going to be many reasons why this is impracticable, but it's obvious that the current system doesn't work for some.

 

John.

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There's an element of common sense to that, and I'm minded to check into the guts of the system to see if it's possible to make that happen.  I've seen that sort of thing in the past on other forums, but I can't remember if they were running Invision or not.  The other part is the old adage "there's no use knocking if no-one's home".  We're all guilty of it to an extent when we click "I have read the terms and conditions" on various things.  Who has time?  We sometimes get new members complaining that they can't post 5 minutes after they've registered, and more that register several accounts when they find out they can't post immediately after they register, clearly having not bothered to read the short screed that tells them that we manually approve new members.  That should give you an idea of how impatient some people can be. :shrug:

 

Also, we're all getting older, and sometimes screw up, so it's difficult to be too annoyed at people when they screw up.  When they keep doing it after being told time and again, that's when it gets annoying. looking at you, persistent multiple thread offenders in the Buy/Sell area. :hmmm:

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The red text clearly doesn't work for everyone.  How about changing the title of Help and Support to match Julien's recent announcement?  It might help if people found they were trying to ask about airbrushes in a forum that was called SITE Help and Support ABOUT HOW THIS SITE WORKS - not for anything to do with modelling.  In big red letters, too, if the software allows it.

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4 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

is it possible to set something up whereby before you can post anything on BM, you have to have read the rules with regards to making requests for information regarding modelling. Then at the end of the rules there could be something to click on to say that you've read and understood them, similar to when you sign up to some websites.

We've tried that a good 10 years ago on a forum where I used to mod. 

Guess what happened?

 

4 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

I know that you will always get the one who just scrolls through and clicks at the end without reading them, but they can't then say that they were unaware.

 

The ones who scroll through and click 'agree' at the end and then post stuff in non-applicable places will still do so. 

Now, be honest, how many times have you read the TOS or EULA on a piece of software before clicking 'next next finish' ? :P 
 

The thing you've accomplished in that case is aggravate other well-meaning individuals, and as you well know there are plenty of numb-nuts out there that will gladly give you an earful about how the admins of site X are complete <insert favourite invective here> . 
You don't want that bad PR. 

Baaaad idea.

 

[edit]

And you still have to clean up errant posts. Blegh.

 

 

 

 

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While I agree with John aka @Bullbasket I hope he won’t mind me pointing out a teeny weeny fly in the ointment. It doesn’t matter how simple you make things there is always 1. 
 

True story - I write to client:-

Dear X

Please find attached two letters for you to sign. Please sign one on the dotted line against your initials and return it to me in the stamped addressed envelope and keep the other copy

Yours etc

 

Next day they phone. “I got your letter. What do you want me to do?”


:rage:

 

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So what is the answer then, do nothing? Just because there will always be someone who will slip under the radar, doesn't mean that you shouldn't try something new. I used the analogy of the “read the terms and conditions” as a loose example, not to be taken as being exactly the same. Let's face it, Terms and Conditions can go on for page after page and obviously don't truly get read. But I'm talking about just a couple of lines, in bold red print that stands more chance of being read than it does in it's present position.

Let's face it. Nobody, apart from maybe a lawyer reads the terms and conditions. The main reason that they're there is to cover their backsides in case someone tries to sue them. There will always be somebody who will still end up posting in the wrong place, just as there will always be someone who when something new is proposed, will say that it will never work. I've no doubt that someone at North American, who on hearing that there was a proposal to slot a Merlin into an A36 frame said “It'll never work”.

If it makes 50% of people think before posting, then that can only be a good thing IMO.


John.
 

 

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Maybe change the heading to remove the words "help and support"? It could be changed to something along the lines of "forum and functionality issues". This seems to be the most frequent source of confusion. 

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12 minutes ago, Adam Poultney said:

Maybe change the heading to remove the words "help and support"? It could be changed to something along the lines of "forum and functionality issues". This seems to be the most frequent source of confusion. 

 

Yes , I think the title may just be too generic, esp. coming as it does at the top of the list. I suspect punters see the word "Help" and don't register anything else - they are looking for help (about something) so click on the first thing that matches. It has been experimentally proven that people take in at most 25% of any online page and tend to seek 'trigger words'

 

A more specific heading may avoid this, perhaps using trigger words more closely related to the type of issue you want posted here. My suggestion would be "Posting, access and service issues" which I think covers the majority of legitimate queries.

 

Cheers


Colin

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Also ... I usually use BM on a PC .... the wide range of forums is immediately obvious. But I just had a look on the forums on my phone. In this case I only see 2 forums on the forum screen ... FAQs and Forum Support. All the rest are 'below the line' ... there isn't hint of any other forums. Ironically, the extra text about what the Help forum is for may be making things worse, as it effectively pushes all trace of the other forums below the visible screen.

 

So a new visitor to the site using a mobile could perhaps legitimately think there were no further options, see the word 'Help' and choose that. There is nothing to encourage the user to scroll down for more options. Furthermore, the FAQ text says  'Use the Help and Support forum if you can't find the answer here'. In other words, the opening screen is offering the user a binary choice - check the FAQs, and if you can't find the answer, use Help & Support.

 

So I think that 

 

1 - the FAQ text should read "use one of our many specialist forums listed below"

2 - the heading of 'Help and Support' should be changed as suggested already

3 - the extra text for 'Help and Support' should be removed or significantly reduced so that the presence of additional forums is visible to mobile users.

 

Of course this all applies to new(ish) visitors ... there's no excuse for old hands!

 

Cheers

 

Colin

 

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A couple of points come to mind:

- if you suffer from what used to be called colour blindness (does that have a different name now?) the fact that some text is in a different colour won't necessarily make it more visible - I suppose it may even make it less

- how about having a new fresh page with just that message on it before you enter this forum?

 

In the end I suspect nothing will work (which secretly I would be ok with as I always have a peek at deleted or closed threads)

 

all the best

Mark

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13 minutes ago, Mark Harmsworth said:

if you suffer from what used to be called colour blindness (does that have a different name now?) the fact that some text is in a different colour won't necessarily make it more visible - I suppose it may even make it less

That's a good point.  I'm not sure how red would appear to a colour-blind person, and there are lots of different types of colour-blindness, IIRC.  It's also in emboldened text though, so as long as red doesn't appear as something light enough to blend into the background colour, it should still visible.

 

We're putting a lot of effort into making excuses for people in this thread, but there's really no excuse for not reading the heading of the Help & Support forum other than can't be bothered, or too impatient.  Making everyone that does take the time to read that little sentence at the top of this section read all the rules & regulations seems a bit of an unfair sledgehammer to crack a self-absorbed nut.  It's not going to end the world if a few people a week or a month post in the wrong place and have to get re-directed, and if one or two of them spit their dummies at this redirection, perhaps this isn't the sort of forum for them?  We had one of those this week, and on reading the brief interaction that person had with a fellow Mod, one wonders how they manage to get from A to B on a daily basis without getting a bloody nose. :blink:

 

Having pondered the matter for a couple of days on and off, other than maybe implementing a pop-up when someone first enters the H&S forum to let them know what it's for*, it's not worth doing much more, and even with a pop-up, how many people will just click through without reading them?  I've seen it dozens of times when I've been stood behind people helping them with their IT problems.  It usually turned out to be the nut at the front of the keyboard. :mental:

 

 

* I'm not sure if this is possible without installing an add-in to the forum, and these sometimes cause more trouble than they're worth when the next forum version comes along or the author abandons the project, and often cost money.  Don't know yet.

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7 minutes ago, Mike said:

other than maybe implementing a pop-up when someone first enters the H&S forum to let them know what it's for

I'd say not worth it - lots of people use pop-up blockers anyway.

 

Cheers


Colin

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I thought I'd chip in with my FWIW as I have only been posting on here for a couple of years and am not that savvy when it comes to forums and the like, in fact this is the only one I have ever used, except for reading a thread on an Internet search,  I found the site quite clear and easy to understand as a newbie and also I am colour blind (which makes modelling even more of a challenge) but the red text still sticks out to me as a "take notice." And while I'm here thanks to everyone who keeps it going it's been a great help👍🏻

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Carrying on a moment with the info on the colour blindness details. There are spectrums of colour blindness... Some can be in the red, green, blue, and even yellow. And then there can be mixes of these! So makes the mods job even harder picking a colour to make the header stand out to everyone! 

https://www.colourblindawareness.org/colour-blindness/types-of-colour-blindness/#:~:text=People with protanopia are unable,blues and yellows stand out.

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I've just reviewed the route to the H&S area, and it's pretty bloomin' obvious what it's about:

 

Heading:

Forum Functionality & Forum Software Help and Support

Subtext:

For support in regards to the use of the forum and the functionality/use of its software

Subheading:

Help & Support for Forum Issues*

Subtext:

Once you've looked at the FAQ forum, post here if you still need help. NOT for modelling related issues.

 

If we're STILL looking for ways to make it more clear, aren't we knocking on the door of an empty house? :hmmm:I'm not going to waste any more time trying to help the unhelpable.  I don't mean that in a nasty way, just the kind of... I give up :dull:

 

* I added the "for Forum Issues" while I was looking at things.

 

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18 minutes ago, Mike said:

If we're STILL looking for ways to make it more clear, aren't we knocking on the door of an empty house?

Precisely! You can write whatever you like on there, put it in any colour and there will still be those who will simply bypass it. The reasons will be many; Didn't see it, didn't understand it, can't be asked, why should I? etc. At least if they have to go via a "Terms and Conditions" kind of set up, they can't plead innocence They'll have had to click on "I understand" or whatever.

Anyway, I've put it out there and it's for others to decide what to do. Personally, if I had my way, each time somebody transgressed, klaxons would go off, lights would flash, sirens sound, and a large boxing glove would come out of the computer screen at warp speed and land on the offending parties nose.

 

John.

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How about trying it for a while with only the red NOT FOR text - no distractions, less excuse for skipping noticing it. And maybe put the title in red too. Once in the section you could then have the bit about checking the FAQ before posting.  Oh I dunno, if in doubt, make it flash. Which I'd expect to work but annoy absolutely everyone.

 

Paul.

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3 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

What if the offender's subscription is immediately cancelled and they have to wait at least 3 months before they are allowed to rejoin?

 

 

 

Chris

Draconian much? :lol:  The only time that could happen (and did recently) is if the "offender" kicks off and gets V shirty with one of the Mods.  As I said earlier in the thread, those are the people that we don't really miss anyway. :shrug:

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3 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Personally, if I had my way, each time somebody transgressed, klaxons would go off, lights would flash, sirens sound, and a large boxing glove would come out of the computer screen at warp speed and land on the offending parties nose.

 

We could ask someone experienced to build that....

shitty-robot.gif

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3 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Personally, if I had my way, each time somebody transgressed, klaxons would go off, lights would flash, sirens sound, and a large boxing glove would come out of the computer screen at warp speed and land on the offending parties nose.

Nah. I come on here to get away from all that stuff at home every time I do something I shouldn’t :winkgrin:

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Nah, that won't do it either.  The sort of idiot we're talking about here often suffers from twin problems:

 

1)  Selective reading ability, they're incapable of reading - or even noticing - anything that doesn't fit in with their world.

 

2)  The supreme overriding belief that rules don't apply to them because they're special. 

 

:rolleyes:

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7 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

Maybe...............................

You could make it flash and jump out of the screen, and some people would still ignore it :shrug:

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