British Early War Bombs - Yellow Colour

[wmcgill]

1 hour ago, Selwyn said:

Irrespective of what you see the colour that was officially mandated, the colour that the factories had to paint them was   Buff 381C 359. It was the same colour that was used on British  Army and Royal Navy artillery shells. It could not be yellow as this colour was used for a separate purpose in the explosive marking system.

 

Selwyn

Irrespective of what was officially mandated, we have plenty of photos showing quite a bright yellow being commonly visible on bombs (and bomb fins). This correlates well with the only drawings from manuals I currently have access to which describe "yellow" (Explanatory List Of Service Markings 1918), "yellow" (AP1661B 1943-1947) and "dark green" (AP1661B 1943-1947) for the bodies.

 

Not buff. What manual or directive does "buff" appear in?

[Selwyn]

1 hour ago, wmcgill said:

Irrespective of what was officially mandated, we have plenty of photos showing quite a bright yellow being commonly visible on bombs (and bomb fins). This correlates well with the only drawings from manuals I currently have access to which describe "yellow" (Explanatory List Of Service Markings 1918), "yellow" (AP1661B 1943-1947) and "dark green" (AP1661B 1943-1947) for the bodies.

 

Not buff. What manual or directive does "buff" appear in?

 The British Inter-Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings manual , as stated earlier in the thread. This Manual mandates the colours by British Standard No that must be  used for the markings.

Edit. I have two copies of this document one pre war, one Post War. The Pre War version quotes Middle buff 59  from the 1931 edition of BS381c,  the post war quotes Buff 359 from the 1948 edition with the added colour  grouping no 3 added to the 59, but still the same colour.

 

Selwyn

[nheather]

6 hours ago, Selwyn said:

What you must realise is that these images are copies of copies of copies of original images from the 1940's that would have colour fading etc. , The colours are at best now just a representation of the original.

 

Selwyn

I agree with that ...

 

All the photos are practically the same shade of yellow.  Have they all been distorted in exactly the same way 

 

In the Wellington photo in particular the bombs are the same colour as the roundel ring.  Pretty close in other photos too, like the Stirling.

 

The photo taken at the Finland Museum isn't copies of copies of copies and yet it is the same yellow as in the archive pictures.

 

And none of them look like the buff patches posted above.

[Selwyn]

15 minutes ago, nheather said:

I agree with that ...

 

All the photos are practically the same shade of yellow.  Have they all been distorted in exactly the same way 

 

In the Wellington photo in particular the bombs are the same colour as the roundel ring.  Pretty close in other photos too, like the Stirling.

 

The photo taken at the Finland Museum isn't copies of copies of copies and yet it is the same yellow as in the archive pictures.

 

And none of them look like the buff patches posted above.

In the British Inter-Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings manual no munition is painted  overall Yellow.  It is only used for markings upon Munition bodies, the most common being a Yellow band (identified as Golden Yellow 56 /356 in the manual)  on a black coloured munition which indicates a Practice munition. This must have caused problems on the change over to the NATO marking system as a Golden Yellow (356) band in NATO Parlance indicates High Explosive!

 

Selwyn

 

[Charlie Hugo]

Look at this

yeah with caveat that it is a scan etc

Humbrol Light buff

[Phoenix44]

5 hours ago, Selwyn said:

 The British Inter-Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings manual , as stated earlier in the thread. This Manual mandates the colours by British Standard No that must be  used for the markings.

Edit. I have two copies of this document one pre war, one Post War. The Pre War version quotes Middle buff 59  from the 1931 edition of BS381c,  the post war quotes Buff 359 from the 1948 edition with the added colour  grouping no 3 added to the 59, but still the same colour.

 

Selwyn

I'm a little confused by this. By mid war bombs were green weren't they? So either there's an official manual in-between those two that says paint them green or everybody just ignored the manual. Assuming it was official, then when did that happen and was there a slightly earlier one that said paint them yellow?

[Work In Progress]

14 hours ago, nheather said:

Maybe it’s my eyes, my brain, or my screen, but the colour I am seeing is much closer to trainer yellow than the British Standard buff colour referenced above.

 

Maybe I have ‘trainer yellow’ wrong but to me this colour is definitely yellow rather than buff.

 

Honestly, I think you are getting "trainer yellow" wrong and being confused by the fact that the official name for a specific shade may not necessarily reflect the words in use in ordinary language. Much as if you ask any normal person in real life what colour the underside of a Lancaster is they will say black, which is colloquially perfectly reasonable language to use, but technically not because the correct colour if you are ordering the paint is Night. If you showed one of these bombs in isolation to an ordinary person they would quite reasonably describe it colloquially as "yellow". But not all colloquial yellows are the same, and very much not the same as the official Yellow you would see a Magister painted in, or the outer ring of a roundel. *That* yellow is much richer. And to me the roundel outer rings on the Wellington look richer than the bombs, which are a greyer, paler, more washed out colour.

 

I suppose it will win no friends to point out that there is officially no such thing as "Trainer Yellow" in WW2 Air Ministry aviation: the colour you see on a Magister or Tiger Moth is the same Yellow that you might use to paint  the relevant part of a roundel.

 

Would a lay person describe an RAF early-war bomb as "buff" in colloquial language. Probably not, if they are thinking of the colour of an envelope. The official Buff is not very envelope-like. But then Sky is not the same colour as you often see the sky, and I don't personally find Dark Slate Grey to be anything other than a kind of green. These names can be confusing because they do not necessarily line up with people's cultural expectations

Edited February 13, 2023 by Work In Progress

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Phoenix44 said:

I'm a little confused by this. By mid war bombs were green weren't they? So either there's an official manual in-between those two that says paint them green or everybody just ignored the manual. Assuming it was official, then when did that happen and was there a slightly earlier one that said paint them yellow?

There was a switch to Bronze green during the war,  and this became the standard bomb colour.   Buff was phased out in 1941  I think?  

 

The manuals @Selwyn refers to are listing approved colours and what their BS names/number were.  

 

The bombs were not yellow,  they were painted Buff.  As pointed out by @Selwyn many years ago,  ALL the colours used in munitions mean something.   He was an RAF armourer,  which  is why he speaks with authority  on the subject.

eg 

2 hours ago, Selwyn said:

In the British Inter-Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings manual no munition is painted  overall Yellow.  It is only used for markings upon Munition bodies, the most common being a Yellow band (identified as Golden Yellow 56 /356 in the manual)  on a black coloured munition which indicates a Practice munition.

 

2 hours ago, nheather said:

 

All the photos are practically the same shade of yellow

As has been stated, yellow was  not used as an overall body colour.  Buff was.  This is the official colour specified for use.  

 

As has also been stated buff was made from white and yellow ochre.

 

RAF Yellow is a warm yellow (it's has a slight red, as opposed to a greenish yellow)  

 

yellow ochre is brown hued warm yellow,   

 

which is exactly what is visible here, a slightly brown hued yellow

 

the colour swatches shown are not going to appear the same on a monitor.  

 

Perhaps  @Casey  would be kind enough to do another comparison of the buffs with the RAF yellow as well. 

 

 

[wmcgill]

2 hours ago, Selwyn said:

In the British Inter-Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings manual no munition is painted  overall Yellow.  It is only used for markings upon Munition bodies, the most common being a Yellow band (identified as Golden Yellow 56 /356 in the manual)  on a black coloured munition which indicates a Practice munition. This must have caused problems on the change over to the NATO marking system as a Golden Yellow (356) band in NATO Parlance indicates High Explosive!

 

Selwyn

 

It would appear that the British Inter-Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings manual must have been considered quite irrelevant by those tasked with painting aerial bombs because bombs frequently did end up in a colour that almost everyone would consider to be "yellow".

 

Manuals are obviously a good reference source but we shouldn't slavishly follow them when they're clearly contradicted by real world observations. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by wmcgill
clarity

[wmcgill]

23 hours ago, wmcgill said:

Perhaps, but you can see how yellow the bomb fins appear compared with the green bombs and the buff bombs & fin, desert sand, Caucasian skin and uniform fabric. Bombs may have been "buff" during WWI and for the inter-war years but they were "yellow" before they were dark green. Hence these obviously "yellow" fins.

 

 

Just in case anyone is interested in calibrating their eyes with mine, these are the colours I see in the photograph.

 

[Jochen Barett]

[Heather Kay]

21 minutes ago, wmcgill said:

these are the colours I see in the photograph

 

The part of the bomb containing the explosives was stored in the bomb dump, often outdoors and simply camouflaged with tarpaulins or nets. They tended to get grubby and scuffed, as the photo shows. The tails, however, which included a fairly delicate pistol mechanism, were stored in special containers where the paint remained pristine. 

 

This has been a fascinating debate, but I think I know which side I'm tending to agree with.  

 

 

[nheather]

Firstly, I referred to trainer yellow purely because that is what Airfix tell you to use - Humbrol 24.

 

But personally, I can see their reasoning.  I don't deny that they were painted a paint called 'buff' but I do struggle with what my eyes tell me.  Look at this

 

 

Top left we have the Humbrol light buff, note that the tin lid is nothing like the artistic splash shown in one of the posts above

Top right we have Humbrol trainer yellow

Bottom left we have a swatch for BS381C 358

Bottom right we have a bomb from a museum in Finland

 

Now I can sympathise with Airfix, because whilst none are a perfect match, to my eyes the Humbrol Trainer Yellow is closest by far.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Mark Harmsworth]

36 minutes ago, nheather said:

I don't deny that they were painted a paint called 'buff' but I do struggle with what my eyes tell me. 

I've been watching this thread with interest but I'm now not really understanding your point. 

 

If you think that Humbrol 'Trainer Yellow' is a good match then just go for it. What's the problem?

 

I will add that to my eyes that tin lid doesn't look like the undersides of trainers I've seen in period photos (puts on tin foil hat).

[nheather]

57 minutes ago, Mark Harmsworth said:

I've been watching this thread with interest but I'm now not really understanding your point. 

 

If you think that Humbrol 'Trainer Yellow' is a good match then just go for it. What's the problem?

 

I will add that to my eyes that tin lid doesn't look like the undersides of trainers I've seen in period photos (puts on tin foil hat).

To be honest, the thread has grown legs.  It started off with me simply asking “Airfix says Humbrol 24, were they really that yellow”.

 

There were then several photos showing that they were indeed yellow, maybe a little lighter but pretty close to Humbrol 24 - and I’d have been happy with that.

 

But then there was all the talk of them being Light Buff, which I don’t deny, but puzzled because it looks nothing like the colour in the photos.

 

I carried on the discussion because I find the discrepancy intriguing and I like to understand things.

 

So yes, I’m going to use Humbrol 24 (or similar) but I’ll probably tone it down and lighten it a little.

[dogsbody]

So as I'm retired and it's cold, windy and snowing outside, I did a little digging around, checking colour callouts in some kits.

In the Airfix Whitley, they ask for the bombs to be painted Humbrol 74 Linen Matt.

 

I compared, as best I could, with Humbrol 24 Trainer Yellow. It's dang close!

 

 

 

Pick your favourite!

 

 

 

Chris

[nheather]

47 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

So as I'm retired and it's cold, windy and snowing outside, I did a little digging around, checking colour callouts in some kits.

In the Airfix Whitley, they ask for the bombs to be painted Humbrol 74 Linen Matt.

 

I compared, as best I could, with Humbrol 24 Trainer Yellow. It's dang close!

 

 

 

Pick your favourite!

 

 

 

Chris

Thus artistic splats can be quite unrealistic.  This is a tin top for linen

 

 

Quite a bit different but I can see that it could be used.  Mix it with some 24 and I think it will be pretty close to the photos.  And could probably work as a scaled down colour on its own.

[Antti_K]

2 hours ago, nheather said:

Now I can sympathise with Airfix, because whilst none are a perfect match, to my eyes the Humbrol Trainer Yellow is closest by far.

 

 

Hello Nigel,

 

when I pictured the bombs I had the "RAF Museum Book" with colour chart at hand. The bombs are lighter than that yellow swatch in the book. Add white to Humbrol 24 to get a better match. Unfortunately my next museum visit is booked for in early March.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[georgeusa]

I have read this thread and watched it bounce across upside down, right side up and cross ways.  I guess if you are after an exact match of a particular aircraft and you have a photo of that aircraft, then you have the option of either being true to the photo and show how well you matched it, or you can be true to what is looked like fresh from the paint shop.  Anything in between is going to be some sort of shade of the color and not an exact match.  Paint, no matter how well applied, or how protected by an overcoat begins to change colors due to environmental factors and the basic breakdown of the paint that will occur over time.  How long it remains true to the exact hue and luster of its original shade fresh out of the paint can depends on so many things.  Likewise, there are the factors to be brought in as to the actual mixture of the paint versus what the standard was to be followed.  If paint is mixed, did settling of the colors occur during storage and was it mixed enough?  Add to that was it applied by brush or by spray.  If spray, was it properly thinned?  Was the thinner pristine or was it contaminated?  Was the thinner from the same manufacturer as the paint or the same as recommended?  Application during low temperatures will affect the color as will application during high temperatures.  Now some of these factors will only affect a slight change of the hue, tint or shade.  But they will affect what the color of the paint should be versus what actually was applied.  So basically, follow a guideline for a pristine, fresh off the factory finish; follow a picture is you want to represent a particular plane at a particular point in time; and for all other representations go with what your gut, your intelligence and your estimation of the wear and tear on the aircraft you want to portray and how you want it to look.  Man you have to love this site for all the different points of view and how people let others express views diametrically opposed while still remaining civil and hearing them out.  Thanks for letting me share this.

[Selwyn]

4 hours ago, wmcgill said:

It would appear that the British Inter-Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings manual must have been considered quite irrelevant by those tasked with painting aerial bombs because bombs frequently did end up in a colour that almost everyone would consider to be "yellow".

 

Manuals are obviously a good reference source but we shouldn't slavishly follow them when they're clearly contradicted by real world observations. 

Manuals are source documents and their requirements are always included in the specification of the item they relate to, munition or otherwise. And as a weapon professional I can tell you that any munitions that arrive from manufacture  with either its colour scheme or packaging markings painted not to specification is rejected and sent back to the manufacturer. I know, because i have done it myself. A Manual is a primary source  technical document,  its a not a  "if you feel like it document," its an official "you will paint it that colour" document,  Munition markings are a matter of safety, and must be correct.

 

I'm sorry if that conflicts with your personal perception  of eighty year old colour photo's!

 

Selwyn

[wmcgill]

17 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

Manuals are source documents and their requirements are always included in the specification of the item they relate to, munition or otherwise. And as a weapon professional I can tell you that any munitions that arrive from manufacture  with either its colour scheme or packaging markings painted not to specification is rejected and sent back to the manufacturer. I know, because i have done it myself. A Manual is a primary source  technical document,  its a not a  "if you feel like it document," its an official "you will paint it that colour" document,  Munition markings are a matter of safety, and must be correct.

 

I'm sorry if that conflicts with your personal perception  of eighty year old colour photo's!

 

Selwyn

How would you explain the reality of the green colour of later RAF (& USAAF) bombs, which is also a colour not in your manual for bomb bodies?

Edited February 14, 2023 by wmcgill
clarity

[Selwyn]

6 hours ago, Phoenix44 said:

I'm a little confused by this. By mid war bombs were green weren't they? So either there's an official manual in-between those two that says paint them green or everybody just ignored the manual. Assuming it was official, then when did that happen and was there a slightly earlier one that said paint them yellow?

Open stacked buff coloured munitions munitions were found to be very visible from the air and were initially hurredly camoflaged with darker  paint usually only on the top  bombs of the stack.The later version of the British Inter-Service Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings manual  Gives an alternate Bomb colour to be used as required that is Deep Bronze Green BS 381c 224. This colour replaced Buff entirely for aircraft bombs in the 1950's, and has only recently been superseded by light grey.

 

Selwyn

[dogsbody]

My two tins:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Selwyn]

3 minutes ago, wmcgill said:

How would you explain the reality of green colour (for RAF & USAAF) bombs which is also not in your manual?

See my post above.  The US Manufactured HE Bombs were painted to US specifications/marking regulations so were painted US Olive Drab and had a combination of yellow bands, the pattern of which determined the type of explosive fill.

 

Incidentally US Pre war HE bombs were painted Yellow, but reverted to Olive drab at the start of WW2 for the same camouflage reasons as the British.

 

Selwyn

[Selwyn]

4 hours ago, nheather said:

Firstly, I referred to trainer yellow purely because that is what Airfix tell you to use - Humbrol 24.

 

But personally, I can see their reasoning.  I don't deny that they were painted a paint called 'buff' but I do struggle with what my eyes tell me.  Look at this

 

 

Top left we have the Humbrol light buff, note that the tin lid is nothing like the artistic splash shown in one of the posts above

Top right we have Humbrol trainer yellow

Bottom left we have a swatch for BS381C 358

Bottom right we have a bomb from a museum in Finland

 

Now I can sympathise with Airfix, because whilst none are a perfect match, to my eyes the Humbrol Trainer Yellow is closest by far.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

The bomb in the museum in Finland is marked as a HE bomb. As its obviously not a real HE bomb as its in a museum, its possible that its undergone some sort of repainting at some time. I am always suspicious of the colours of museum items for this reason.

 

Selwyn