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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Paul Lucas said:

Extra Dark Sea Grey BS 381C No. 640 is the same colour as the wartime Extra Dark Sea Grey.

Not to tread on any toes, but the chips I posted are taken direct from RAFM and BSc, there is very much a difference if they are correct 

 

repost it here as I accidently deleted the image and saved over it on my pc 

 

edsg.jpg

Edited by PhantomBigStu
Posted

At this time, there seems to be an issue with Postimages and  the photos are nor viewable. There are other posts by other members with this issue.

 

 

 

Chris

Posted
4 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

Extra Dark Sea Grey BS 381C No. 640 is the same colour as the wartime Extra Dark Sea Grey.

The samples that I have differ by ~2.0 DE. The British Standard seems tiny bit bit darker and more green.

 

The difference is not as bad as the photo above shows, it is more like that:

 

MAP is on the left

100x100100x100 

 

But the BS color deck is glossy while MAP samples are matt. That has a huge difference on color perception.

 

Here is same object with different varnishes applied. There is no difference in color between those areas, just perception. My measurements above use device that has geometry designed to ignore the gloss effect on sample color.

 

ade3ff43cb4777f5ca8b640ace4e39ad.png

 

 

  • Like 2
Posted

That’s odd, i got the map one from you, must have made an error entering it, will update it. Also I hadn’t considered the gloss factor accounting for the difference but as you say it is definitely a different flavour of grey 

  • 2 months later...
Posted (edited)

Given up on my quest of getting stuff right (though I might still consolidate all caseys MAP/BSc work into a single post) but definitely busted xtracrylix dark sea grey isa good DSG, humbrol 106 is actually fairly close and having used it for a touch up of an old build its way off the XA, in facts its weird grey all on its own with nothing like it in other ranges, having no blue tint

IMG-5012.jpg

Edited by PhantomBigStu
Posted

Dear @Casey, firstly thank you for all you work on the RAF colours, it has finally given me a excellent basis for which paint is the best match, having built quite a few WW2 RAF kits over the last few years.    I have now scientifically written these down on post it notes for the next time I go out paint buying.  

 

Can I ask please if you have been able to consider the Tamiya 3 RAF colours that they brought out some time ago,  XF 81 RAF Dark Green, XF82 Ocean Grey, XF83 MSG.  I noticed that you had not sampled these in your Tamiya list.  I think that the three colours get 'mixed reviews' so it would be interesting to get your analysis.

Posted
21 minutes ago, Olmec Head said:

Dear @Casey, firstly thank you for all you work on the RAF colours, it has finally given me a excellent basis for which paint is the best match, having built quite a few WW2 RAF kits over the last few years.    I have now scientifically written these down on post it notes for the next time I go out paint buying.  

 

Can I ask please if you have been able to consider the Tamiya 3 RAF colours that they brought out some time ago,  XF 81 RAF Dark Green, XF82 Ocean Grey, XF83 MSG.  I noticed that you had not sampled these in your Tamiya list.  I think that the three colours get 'mixed reviews' so it would be interesting to get your analysis.

Thank you for kind words! I have those paints, I just never got to measure them in any way. After I finish with ICM, I'll get back to Tamiya and finish the range.

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Posted
6 hours ago, Olmec Head said:

XF 81 RAF Dark Green, XF82 Ocean Grey, XF83 MSG.  I noticed that you had not sampled these in your Tamiya list.  I think that the three colours get 'mixed reviews'

These are from visual comparison in bright daylight.

81 I thought a bit brown, best of the three.

82 is too blue and dark,  next to Dark Green Ocean Grey looks a bit blue, in isolation it has subtle greeness.

I added white and dash of yellow.

 

83 is muddy. As in a slightly brown grey. You can't fix this.

MSG has a subtle purple blue hue,  I used 82 plus about 50% white and tiny amount of red.

The exact mix ratios are noted somewhere ....  which I need to remind.

 

I also await @Casey  more scientific results.

 

HTH 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Posted

Starting this thread and has made me really just how bad RAF paint (and paints in general) actually are, 22 months later and MAP dark earth is the only one I've got an objectively superb out of the bottle match for and for more shades I'm back at the if it looks right compared to how I think it should look/vs actual photos I don't care how close it actually is.

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Posted
3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

And people wonder why some of us stick to the quality enamels rather than the dodgy acrylics.  Roll on the revived Colourcoats.

Colourcoats made enamels as Jamie was not a fan acrylics.  If he was I'm sure the paint would have been as accurate.

 

Acrylics work well if you know how to use them.  If you expect them to behave like enamels you will be disappointed.

 

The real issue is lack of a reliable acrylic maker interested in colour accuracy. 

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Posted
19 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

And people wonder why some of us stick to the quality enamels rather than the dodgy acrylics.  Roll on the revived Colourcoats.


I hope the new incarnation of Colourcoats is a success, but there is a world outside of enamels that isn’t “dodgy acrylics”

 

lacquer paints such as MRP, SMS and Tamiya’s own lacquers offer superior performance to any of the well known acrylic brands

 

If colour accuracy is paramount, MRP provide RAF WWII colours and the overall range is so large that even if xyz colour is ‘off’ there is going to be the right one in there somewhere 

 

this is not to denigrate in any way Jamie’s work at Sovereign - his research is excellent and if I were to use enamels then his would be my go to, but it’s not 1978, and the likes of MRP offer near bulletproof finish - touch dry in seconds, maskable in a few minutes - that enamels just cannot compete with, as well as spraying as smooth as silk (oh, and don’t say you can’t hairspray chip with them).

 

now back to colours…

 

 

 

 

Posted

One major objection made to enamels is the smell.  Lacquers are worse in this respect.  OK for the solitary modeller in a shed.  Use of naphtha thinners rather than the more usual kind reduces the smell of enamels considerably.

 

Sorry, about right or somewhere in the range just doesn't cut the mustard.   And I model a much wider range of subjects than just RAF.  I have hundreds of tins of paint - yes, including some acrylics and lacquers.  How much is it going to cost to replace all of these, without counting in the multiples of colours I have to try to get about right?  How many years wasted time fiddling about?  (I don't have that many left).

 

Enamels generally (not always) cover better than acrylics.  So you have to wait for coats to dry.  Have you never heard of working on more than one model at a time?  It also provides time for reflection and judgement.

 

I generally make small models with fairly  complex schemes where the time and effort in preparing for and clearing up after airbrushing is excessive.  I use mine for mottling and more theoretically base coats on large aircraft.  I don't model for competitions and the resulting finish is generally good enough for me.  Disappointments are just that: shrug of shoulders and an eternal hope to do better next time.

 

It's only a hobby.

Posted (edited)

What really sticks to me in Casey's list is the comparison of many colours to the same "ready mixed" paints.

If we look at Revell 42 for example it can be used for many many many greens. As I said earlier, DE00 > 1 already jumps into my eyes.
What we might learn here is the fact many many factory model paints are way off, yet some are a good base for further mixing or weathering. And a DE00 of around 1 with just a little touch can give almost perfect results.

And all these lists of Casey are a golden rule book leading through the maze.

I do admit sometimes I think the days where there were far less paints the mixing phase was only natural routine. Perhaps we must just accept it still is.

On top of that. Some real life colours ARE almost the same. Nato green, Dark green, Dark Drab, ... (and that is only in the BS range!) if you compare these they are just as much acceptable (or not) as many model paint comparisons in the lists here are.

Edited by Steben
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Posted
6 hours ago, Steben said:

I do admit sometimes I think the days where there were far less paints the mixing phase was only natural routine. Perhaps we must just accept it still is.

I feel that solution to the problem of infinite combinations by making versions of infinite combinations sold separately is not the best one for customers, but great for paint vendors. It kind of also suggests that it is impossible to match the color precisely. While we do not always have standard samples to match for, the paint color matching itself is a known and solved problem.

 

For me, the artists paint range is a better choice. For example Liquitex Basic Fluids has only 48 paints, 38 of them being used for colors mixing (the rest are metallics and fluorescent) and those will cover ranges of model colors far better than vendor paints for much less.

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Posted (edited)

It all occured to when I mixed RAL7008 with black. This gave a beautiful US Army Olive Drab with the right amount, at least in flat version. With more black it became the darker greener USAF OD41.
Simple mix but careful TO mix. Simple pigmentation and understanding of colours leads to clear mixing.
279577825_490880839494453_21726209311154

284332341_508916407690896_44410096747201

Edited by Steben
  • Like 2
Posted

That is an interesting find about the RAL 7008.   At the very least it provides a base to mix ones own OD - but then which hobby brand is acceptable for this particular shade from RAL?

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  • Greg B pinned this topic
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, JackG said:

That is an interesting find about the RAL 7008.   At the very least it provides a base to mix ones own OD - but then which hobby brand is acceptable for this particular shade from RAL?

Revell 86 = RAL 7008
Most Revell paints are RAL ;). In fact the particular picture with the OD card over the swatches 

is made with Revell 86.....

Revell 382 = RAL 8001 for example
These are Revell 382 with two different amounts of black in full sunlight which makes it very brownish.
The lower one is a very nice PC10 (and interwar Belgian Khaki).
284192233_509532380962632_74174233335341

Edited by Steben
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Posted (edited)

Another "do not get fooled by internet pictures" example.
Both pictures show the same painted swatches.... (and both are off)
280231310_495599222355948_45353507860550
280198007_495599252355945_18267017544573

Edited by Steben
  • Like 2
Posted
On 12/25/2024 at 4:44 PM, Steben said:

when I mixed RAL7008 with black

 

But which black?   Bone Black is a warm black with a bias towards red and Carbon Black is cool black with a bias towards blue. 

 

I presume that all or at least most hobby paint blacks are carbon black.  it would be interesting to see what differences there would be when mixing RAL 7008 with bone black. 

 

cheers, Graham

 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, ColonelKrypton said:

 

But which black?   Bone Black is a warm black with a bias towards red and Carbon Black is cool black with a bias towards blue. 

 

I presume that all or at least most hobby paint blacks are carbon black.  it would be interesting to see what differences there would be when mixing RAL 7008 with bone black. 

 

cheers, Graham

 


True. Carbon / Lamp black is the reference.


All of the RAL mixes are with RAL9005. Closest to lamp black.
Although I mixed some with RAL9011 with almost exactly same result.

Both are slightly slightly biased towards blue.

I did some quick mixes with bone black too to be honest. Especially for fun mixes. The difference with lamp black was not big. The usual one being more black to be mixed.
Differences in amounts of other pigments do a lot more. I mean a yellow oxide mixed with bone black still is a greenish olive drab and a yellow ochre or sienna mixed with bone black is less greenish. The amount of red oxide completely overrules the black pigment's character.

Edited by Steben
  • Thanks 1
Posted
5 hours ago, Steben said:

The amount of red oxide completely overrules the black pigment's character.

 

Indeed.  Making mixes of paint made of mixes (most hobby paints and craft paints) can quickly result in a greyish muddy mix; quite different than what you might have expected based on simple colour theory primarily because you don't always know what you started with.

 

More and more I am going to Golden Fluid and High Flow and Liquitex Fluid acrylics and follow closely @Casey postings and recipes. Still, having a few select Vallejo and AK Interactive 3rd gen acrylics on hand is convenient and mix quite nicely with the Golden and Liquitex acrylic paints and mediums. I haven't tried the Revell or other brand acrylics however.

 

cheers, Graham

 

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Posted (edited)

Updated the first post with a graphic showing how the RAF colours are different, however I now realised I've been in a bit of mess. I asssumed that modern RAF BSc dark green is BS241 and that it was much darker and slightly greener than MAP dark earth, Ive now disocvered that was 641 and in fact 241 is MAP Dark Green which begs the question, what green has the RAF used or have they used both in the cold war and modern era? 

Going to start a thread in the cold war section

Edited by PhantomBigStu
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