RAF MAP and BSc paints hopefully a future sticky

[Casey]

2 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Got this set, thought it fair to report my findings, hard to judge as I’m comparing paint to digital samples but it’s a mixed bag.

Maybe I should get the whole set and measure how much their colors match anything? I had pretty bad experience with previous gen

 

Their on-bottle equivalence of RAF Sky with FS 34412 is worrying.

 

I know that their "RAF Night" in this set in fact AK 11895 - which is IJN Q1 (anti glare blue black). I also have suspicion that the RAF Night sample from the book is not exactly right since it does not seem to contain any ultramarine blue as it should.

 

In my opinion, "scale reduction factor" should never be applied to the paint before deciding on what scale of model you are actually going to do. I really hope it is not just "we just got closest lighter pantone/fs/whatever commercial color match for our machines we had in databases and call it a day"

[PhantomBigStu]

17 minutes ago, Casey said:

Maybe I should get the whole set and measure how much their colors match anything? I had pretty bad experience with previous gen

 

Your money and time so up to you, but will say the 3G stuff is lovely to use as brush a painter though their digital samples and what the paint can be differs, and I’ve picked up loads and in fact are replacing Vallejo with them over time 

[Casey]

2 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said:

up to you,

I think that's the only way for me to get any objective opinion about their color matches They are not cheap though, you could get a spectrophotometer for a price of their paint set!

Edited January 20, 2024 by Casey

[PhantomBigStu]

14 minutes ago, Casey said:

I think that's the only way for me to get any objective opinion about their color matches They are not cheap though, you could get a spectrophotometer for a price of their paint set!

Certainly don’t do that on my account, though I’d appreciate the dedication….if you do it offer your services to Ak so at least their awful digital patches can be updated…..

[Casey]

38 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Certainly don’t do that on my account, though I’d appreciate the dedication….if you do it offer your services to Ak so at least their awful digital patches can be updated…..

I see many people recommending AK products as good color matches, so I'd like to measure their acrylics, considering they name the works of @Nick Millman and Jürgen Kiroff as their color references.

Edited January 20, 2024 by Casey

[Yes_Man]

10 hours ago, Casey said:

I see many people recommending AK products as good color matches, so I'd like to measure their acrylics, considering they name the works of @Nick Millman and Jürgen Kiroff as their color references.

 

I can only comment on the AK Real Colors but Mike Starmer, renowned for his work on British WW2 AFV colours, said that after all the extensive work they did together to get them accurate AK went out and butchered most of the final colours with their "scale reduction factor" idea. That was Starmer's opinion of course and I'm not sure if Millman or Kiroff ever commented on the final result. I don't model AFVs so can't comment further but I have most of their British and Luftwaffe WW2 sets and, when compared to the excellent Tamiya mixes you've provided in the past, they are all off. Some more so than others (eg: their RLM76 is very poor being too grey, but their RLM65(1938) is actually an acceptable match for the RLM 76 Tamiya Mix)

 

Whether the AK 3G Acrylics are significantly different to the AK Real Colors range I do not know although the dreaded "scale reduction factor" pops up again in their marketing material and one would suspect they'd try and use the same pigment formulations.

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Yes_Man said:

Mike Starmer, renowned for his work on British WW2 AFV colours, said that after all the extensive work they did together to get them accurate AK went out and butchered most of the final colours with their "scale reduction factor" idea. That was Starmer's opinion of course and I'm not sure if Millman or Kiroff ever commented on the final result. I don't model AFVs so can't comment further but I have most of their British and Luftwaffe WW2 sets and, when compared to the excellent Tamiya mixes you've provided in the past, they are all off. Some more so than others (eg: their RLM76 is very poor being too grey, but their RLM65(1938) is actually an acceptable match for the RLM 76 Tamiya Mix)

 

it was worse, this is what I found when I went hunting

discussed here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049761-british-olive-drab-no15/page/2/#elControls_3252695_menu

 

relevant quote

"Regarding the AK book.  To be honest I am livid and disgusted at the way they published the British section.  My submitted original text was requested to be shortened, which I did.  They then edited that without my knowledge. I sent complete sets of camouflage diagrams with copies of the official orders.  These orders were totally ignored.   Then redrew some of the disruptive diagrams in their own style and colours transposed onto mostly American vehicles, apparently the British didn't have any of their own.  To cap it they then applied a disruptive pattern from one tank type onto another type, it doesn't fit of course.  The ultimate was putting the pattern for the Greek based A10s onto a Crusader which never carried the design nor deployed to Greece.  Samples of their paint were sent to me for assessment.  None were accurate, not even close, which I reported back with larger samples.  New samples then arrived for testing, still not right.  In discussion I discovered that they were matching under 'daylight' lighting!  FGS are they not sharp or what?  I gave them up as a waste of my time, I told them that too.  Rant over."

 

2 hours ago, Yes_Man said:

Whether the AK 3G Acrylics are significantly different to the AK Real Colors range

I have two AK sets

this

https://modelingmadness.com/scott/accessories/ak/ak2010.htm

 

which are not good,  perhaps of use for US made colors for the Dark Green and Dark Earth, as in 'pine green' and 'milky tan'  but way off for MAP Dark Green and Dark Earth, and  muddy MSG,  blueish Ocean Grey, muddy Sky.....  the Grey Green isn't too bad 

I also have  US Navy set that is worse....  

 

HTH

 

 

[PhantomBigStu]

Sounds like I’ve opened a can of worms praising Ak…..also think I was overselling how close their raf dark green is (bottom row of green) still will be using it on my upcoming wimpy at least initially to see how it really looks. As for the dark earth (centre left), I think it looks good for DuPont 71-009 dark earth 

Edited January 21, 2024 by PhantomBigStu

[Troy Smith]

37 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Sounds like I’ve opened a can of worms praising Ak

some of what they make maybe great, but they have made mistakes and the mangling of Mike Starmer's research is inexcusable. 

40 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

As for the dark earth (centre left), I think it looks good for DuPont 71-009 dark earth

Possibly....  but it's not sold as that...

Anyway, whole point of these discussions is to find out these problems and document them, so others don't have too.

 

cheers

T

[PhantomBigStu]

Decided to try the ak dark green on a build, I stilll don't think its olive enough to be a great MAP Dark Green but its not too light at least as Ive finally accepted BS241 is darker, will be trying revell aqua 68 at some point to compare so for now its going to be my choice for MAP Dark Green.

[PhantomBigStu]

Ignore my comments re the AK set, Casey analysed them and come to quite different conclusions 

 

 

[PhantomBigStu]

I have a question, I have a decent match thanks to casey for MAP EDSG, but BS640 is a much darker grey and out of xtracrylix version (and it sold out) so am a loss what to use on my Sea Vixen 

[Casey]

1 hour ago, PhantomBigStu said:

I have a question, I have a decent match thanks to casey for MAP EDSG, but BS640 is a much darker grey and out of xtracrylix version (and it sold out) so am a loss what to use on my Sea Vixen 

Target: BS640 Extra Dark Sea Grey
    Matches in: Humbrol (compared with 170 samples)
        DE00: 1.41 - DB0123 | No 123 | Extra Dark Sea Grey - Satin | GU 18.4
      
    Matches in: Revell (compared with 86 samples)
        DE00: 2.21 - 36174 | Gunship grey | GU 3.1
      
    Matches in: Vallejo Air (compared with 254 samples)
        DE00: 1.64 - 71.097 | Medium Gunship Gray | Gris Medio USAF | FS36118 | ANA603 | GU 3.1
      
    Matches in: Tamiya (compared with 40 samples)
        DE00: 2.21 - XF-24 | Dark Grey | GU 5.8
      
 

Here you go. Nothing crazy good (from what I had measured). I am working on AK Interactive 3G, that will come in a separate thread in a couple of weeks (thats a lot of paints to measure).

[PhantomBigStu]

Thanks Casey, guess its either use the h123 I have despite being quite different or play the AK lottery....

[Casey]

1 hour ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Thanks Casey, guess its either use the h123 I have despite being quite different or play the AK lottery....

Working on removing the lottery part. The drawdowns are drying:

 

 

I used 100 micron wet film for those, most of them cover pretty nicely, yellow is the usual exception but that is normal. RLM's look suspicious to me.

[PhantomBigStu]

11 hours ago, Casey said:

Working on removing the lottery part. The drawdowns are drying:

 

 

I used 100 micron wet film for those, most of them cover pretty nicely, yellow is the usual exception but that is normal. RLM's look suspicious to me.

Good luck with it, I have 4 of their RLM's so I await the result, also might play the AK lottery anyway as I've now got two builds that need EDSG

Edited February 20, 2024 by PhantomBigStu

[Casey]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:48 AM, PhantomBigStu said:

Good luck with it, I have 4 of their RLM's so I await the result, also might play the AK lottery anyway as I've now got two builds that need EDSG

I did first 30 paints (AK11801 till AK11830) which covers German WWI and RLM's till RLM78 and they are matches to nothing in particular...

 

I cant even pin point the single reference they use. It is not Lufwaffe Colours 1945-1945 - Michael Ullmann. It is not Official Luftwaffe Color Chart - Eagle Editions Ltd. 1998. It is not Merrick and Kiroff neither. I have some ancient publications or some coming from japaneese sources, I can to compare with that too but in reality RLM's, especially up to 74,75,76 don't differ that much between publications, those are pretty well known colors after all since actual color standard samples exist so there is no reason to reinvent them. I don't even know how to present it, they colors match quite randomly to nothing in particular.

Edited February 22, 2024 by Casey

[Yes_Man]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

I did first 30 paints (AK11801 till AK11830) which covers German WWI and RLM's till RLM78 and they are matches to nothing in particular...

 

I cant even pin point the single reference they use. It is not Lufwaffe Colours 1945-1945 - Michael Ullmann. It is not Official Luftwaffe Color Chart - Eagle Editions Ltd. 1998. It is not Merrick and Kiroff neither. I have some ancient publications or some coming from japaneese sources, I can to compare with that too but in reality RLM's, especially up to 74,75,76 don't differ that much between publications, those are pretty well known colors after all since actual color standard samples exist so there is no reason to reinvent them. I don't even know how to present it, they colors match quite randomly to nothing in particular.

Officially they worked with Ullmann I believe for their Real Colors line. That's what I assume the AK 3rd Gen would also be based on. It sounds like their interpretation of "scale effect" has made them completely off though.

[PhantomBigStu]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

I did first 30 paints (AK11801 till AK11830) which covers German WWI and RLM's till RLM78 and they are matches to nothing in particular...

 

I cant even pin point the single reference they use. It is not Lufwaffe Colours 1945-1945 - Michael Ullmann. It is not Official Luftwaffe Color Chart - Eagle Editions Ltd. 1998. It is not Merrick and Kiroff neither. I have some ancient publications or some coming from japaneese sources, I can to compare with that too but in reality RLM's, especially up to 74,75,76 don't differ that much between publications, those are pretty well known colors after all since actual color standard samples exist so there is no reason to reinvent them. I don't even know how to present it, they colors match quite randomly to nothing in particular.

Sad to hear I guess to quote Troy Smith the blindfolded colourblind Vallejo baboon must have a second job.....

 

just for the record, I have 04, 65 (41) 72 and 73 

Edited February 22, 2024 by PhantomBigStu

[Casey]

29 minutes ago, Yes_Man said:

Officially they worked with Ullmann I believe for their Real Colors line. That's what I assume the AK 3rd Gen would also be based on. It sounds like their interpretation of "scale effect" has made them completely off though.

Ok I'll show you an example. This is compared to Ullmann references. AK is on the RIGHT side

 

RLM74:

- DE 2.63, AK is DARKER

 

RLM75:

- DE 11.32 (!). AK is DARKER

 

RLM76:

- DE 1.2

 

I'll try to get some old Ullmann publications, I swear I had some somewhere...

 

 

Edited February 22, 2024 by Casey

[frapes75]

3 hours ago, Casey said:

I did first 30 paints (AK11801 till AK11830) which covers German WWI and RLM's till RLM78 and they are matches to nothing in particular...

 

I cant even pin point the single reference they use. It is not Lufwaffe Colours 1945-1945 - Michael Ullmann. It is not Official Luftwaffe Color Chart - Eagle Editions Ltd. 1998. It is not Merrick and Kiroff neither. I have some ancient publications or some coming from japaneese sources, I can to compare with that too but in reality RLM's, especially up to 74,75,76 don't differ that much between publications, those are pretty well known colors after all since actual color standard samples exist so there is no reason to reinvent them. I don't even know how to present it, they colors match quite randomly to nothing in particular.

Bummer. I strongly suspected they were quite off and now my suspicions are confirmed. 

 Unless they are based upon real samples and all the references are wrong 🤪 their Luftwaffe range is BAD!

 

Nevertheless, THANKS for sharing your finds with us.

 

( Edit: I am only happy using their RLM 02 which is a very easy color to match from different brands and very difficult to get wrong. How is their RLM04 standing up btw? @Casey)

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2024 by frapes75

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Casey said:

I don't even know how to present it, they colors match quite randomly to nothing in particular.

 

2 hours ago, Yes_Man said:

Officially they worked with Ullmann I believe for their Real Colors line. That's what I assume the AK 3rd Gen would also be based on. It sounds like their interpretation of "scale effect" has made them completely off though.

 

18 minutes ago, frapes75 said:

Bummer. I strongly suspected they were quite off and now my suspicions are confirmed. 

 

a sobering tale regarding AK, the book is Real Colors of WW2 armour, and the British section is credited to Mike Starmer,  see https://mafva.co.uk/?p=2607  who is the leading researcher on British Armour colours, and produced books with actual paint chips, 

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235049761-british-olive-drab-no15/page/2/#elControls_3252695_menu

 

"Regarding the AK book.  To be honest I am livid and disgusted at the way they published the British section.  My submitted original text was requested to be shortened, which I did.  They then edited that without my knowledge. I sent complete sets of camouflage diagrams with copies of the official orders.  These orders were totally ignored.   Then redrew some of the disruptive diagrams in their own style and colours transposed onto mostly American vehicles, apparently the British didn't have any of their own.  To cap it they then applied a disruptive pattern from one tank type onto another type, it doesn't fit of course.  The ultimate was putting the pattern for the Greek based A10s onto a Crusader which never carried the design nor deployed to Greece.  Samples of their paint were sent to me for assessment.  None were accurate, not even close, which I reported back with larger samples.  New samples then arrived for testing, still not right.  In discussion I discovered that they were matching under 'daylight' lighting!  FGS are they not sharp or what?  I gave them up as a waste of my time, I told them that too.  Rant over."

 

@Casey  reason for the 'scale reduction factor' being all over the place? 

 

"On the subject of AK paints. I have 7 samples of the Middle East colours for the desert and Italy. Greatly disappointing. Only Light Mud is reasonably close to the appearance of this in photographs but currently lacking a standard would do. Khaki Green 3 is far too light and ginger, lacks depth and the green tinge of the original. Slate 4 is too light and green, should be darker and more grey, Silver Grey 28 is not even close, being too light and very sickly yellow. Portland Stone is too light and lacks the slight green tinge it should have. Light Stone 61 is too dark and too red, Desert Pink is a bright shocking 'girly' hue nothing like SCC.11b , should be duller and earthy in appearance. SCC.14 Blue-black is dark but too red."

 

So, AK, despite having been in contact with Mike Starmer see https://mafva.co.uk/?p=2607  who is the leading researcher on British Armour colours, and produced books with actual paint chips,  they manage the above

 

2 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said:

the blindfolded colourblind Vallejo baboon must have a second job.....

Peter principle, been promoted to book editing and supervising the matching process by AK after success at Vallejo...

 

 

[Casey]

54 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Peter principle, been promoted to book editing and supervising the matching process by AK after success at Vallejo...

My hope is that by pure luck they will serendipitously match to something, like this:

 

(matches <3.0 DE)

 

Target: RAF05 - Extra Dark Sea Green | GU 2.9
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 1.24 - AK11801 - WWI German Fokker Grey | GU 0.1, 0.8, 3.2
      

 

Target: Dark Olive Drab 41 | GU 0.8
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 1.09 - AK11822 - RLM 71 | GU 0.1, 0.6, 4.0
      

 

Target: Maroon (A-N) | GU 28.4
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 2.62 - AK11810 - PC12 | GU 0.1, 0.8, 3.7
      

 

Target: Olive Drab 22 | GU 59.7
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 2.46 - AK11822 - RLM 71 | GU 0.1, 0.6, 4.0
      

 

Target: Rust Brown 34 | GU 0.7
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 1.83 - AK11805 - WWI German Red Brown | GU 0.0, 0.4, 3.0
      

 

Target: ANA504 | Olive Drab 504 | GU 60.5
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 2.52 - AK11822 - RLM 71 | GU 0.1, 0.6, 4.0
      

 

And a suspiciously lot in FS range:

 

Target: Medium Green 34079 | GU 0.7
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 1.68 - AK11821 - RLM 70 | GU 0.1, 0.8, 4.0
      

 

Target: Orange Yellow 13538 | GU 68.5
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 1.48 - AK11813 - RLM 04 | GU 1.4, 2.6, 5.0 | Opacity 81.54%
      

 

Target: Seaplane Gray 26081 | GU 86.8
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 1.97 - AK11826 - RLM 75 | GU 0.1, 0.9, 3.4
      

 

Target: 36375 | GU 1.7
    Matches in: AK Interactive - 3G Acrylics (compared with 30 samples)
        DE00: 2.58 - AK11806 - WWI German Light Blue | GU 1.1, 7.4, 30.9
      

 

Once I measure them all, I'll publish my findings. It's great paint otherwise, just needs new labels

Edited February 23, 2024 by Casey

[PhantomBigStu]

Latest batch of AK arrived, lottery at least when it comes to the EDSG hasn't paid off, lacks the blue tint 

xtracrylix......I hate paint  edit: should for balance say I’m happy with 3 of the others in the order (of course how they actually are is another question), though the other raf shade (msg) I’m not sure about yet shade wise its looks good but its darker than my other MSG paints, one I want to figure out as I'd like to get some more for a potential big build 

 

edit2: from doing a totally unscientific test of sticking the MSG RGB chip in the middle of a humbrol grey from caseys data and then painting the real things suggests its potentially quite good

Edited February 25, 2024 by PhantomBigStu

[PhantomBigStu]

As it came up in another thread again, just to note Extra Dark Sea Grey is one colour that is very much different between the wartime MAP Shade and the postwar BSc Shade

 

Edited March 30, 2024 by PhantomBigStu