Nuremberg 2023

[Dennis_C]

17 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

manufacturer sales to distributors? 
Yeah, I can accept those not making a difference. 
Does mean the retailer and distributor gets stuck with the boxes on the shelves though..

I agree. Trustful negative reviews are not coming out the day one. Picky modellers need time to receive kits, measure against plans and photoes and then publish their observations.

At the same time I believe manufacturers ship solid portion of molded kits to distributors the day one well before any negative reviews come out.

[Graham Boak]

In my mind, no model can possibly be perfect in all ways.  A useless review one that avoids all critical comment and consists only of mindless praise.  Is this positive or negative?  I can see why manufacturers and sellers feel differently to the modeller, but then I'm looking at reviews for assistance in my modelling.  The purpose of a review should not be just to let us know that manufacturer X had produced a model of subject Y, (we usually know this already) and that the reviewer refuses to find (or indeed look for) anything departing from perfection.  The review is only of any use to the reader if it points out where improvements can be made to accuracy in shape, quality of fit, and choice of schemes/markings.  Certainly better still if the review offers help in these matters rather than just slapping down a potential slur.  After all, reviewers are no more perfect than manufacturers.  Pointing out where the model does better than earlier offerings is equally important, if not more so.

 

If a review pointing out that a kit actually is terrible (when did we ever see one of those?) actually prevents modellers from buying it, GOOD.

 

 

[Sebastien]

https://www.youtube.com/@DoogsModels

59 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

If a review pointing out that a kit actually is terrible (when did we ever see one of those?) actually prevents modellers from buying it, GOOD.

 

 

Check Matt's channel : https://www.youtube.com/@DoogsModels or his website...

You'll see a couple or six of those.

Don't bother complaining about the language, though.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Sebastien
Censored for a reason I cannot fathom, but I'd love an explanation so I won't do it again

[fightersweep]

44 minutes ago, Sebastien said:

https://www.youtube.com/@DoogsModels

Check Matt's channel : https://www.youtube.com/@DoogsModels or his website...

You'll see a couple or six of those.

Don't bother complaining about the language, though.

 

I know he panned the HK B-17, but then I got the distinct impression he couldn't have bothered test fitting the parts first. Most of the issues he seemed to have could have been ironed out beforehand quite easily. That's all I did and the kit is going together nicely so far. Then there was the vocal chat below that just seemed to parrot what he said and junked the kit as unbuildable, most of them probably having never even touched the plastic themselves. But that's the problem with any build review. It's not me building the kit and forming my own opinions which will naturally of course, differ from others opinions.

[VMA131Marine]

14 hours ago, GioCare said:

I have the suspect the new 72 scale  F35 from Airfix is something of the 109 Revell Kind ... 

 

Why would you suspect this when Airfix have explicitly said that it’s not. It’s going to be a regular kit, just simplified to reduce the part count as with the starter set Spitfire and BAe Hawk.

[Piotr Mikolajski]

4 hours ago, alt-92 said:

manufacturer sales to distributors?

 

The manufacturer sells everywhere and knows perfectly well how his product sells.

Nobody orders one kit in the thousands, usually orders from large customers are a few dozens to a few hundred pieces. If these few hundred pieces do not sell, there will be no further orders from that customer, because he will not fill his warehouse with a model that does not sell.

 

Reviews are read by a minority of model builders, and on top of that, only a fraction are really guided by these reviews. This can even be seen in the discussions below the reviews. If the kit of the FUBAR Mk.2 is really shitty and people point out lack of quality and the obvious flaws and errors, there will still be a group of people who don't consider the flaws and errors to be flaws and errors, who don't mind the flaws and errors, who want to have the model, even if it's not buildable, but they still will buy it because someone released it after all. And even if they don't build it, no one will care.
 

The primary audience for modelling companies is the ordinary customer, who does not contribute to communities or forums and of whose existence this section of committed modellers has no idea. And these are the customers who buy most of the kits in this world.

[spruecutter96]

12 hours ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

Talk to the manufacturers, preferably a few, you will be very surprised. Even the haters can't realistically influence the sales of a kit.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one. I was quoting a man who has owned/run a model-shop for well over twenty-five years - I would think he knows what he's talking about. 

 

Also, there was a story about Stevens International (Trumpeter's US distributors) from several years ago... Some Trumpeter kits had received such bad reviews that Stevens flatly refused to sell them in America in their original form. As a result, the Chinese firm actually went to the trouble of re-cutting the molds to correct the biggest issues. Stevens obviously thought the models made no real business-sense, if not corrected. 

 

So, manufacturers take no notice of reviews? I beg to differ. 

 

Admittedly, some modellers couldn't care less about a kit's accuracy (I'm one of them, kinda), but there's a very vocal minority who care very much. 

 

Chris. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by spruecutter96
Amending some information.

[JFM148]

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

In my mind, no model can possibly be perfect in all ways.  A useless review one that avoids all critical comment and consists only of mindless praise.  Is this positive or negative?  I can see why manufacturers and sellers feel differently to the modeller, but then I'm looking at reviews for assistance in my modelling.  The purpose of a review should not be just to let us know that manufacturer X had produced a model of subject Y, (we usually know this already) and that the reviewer refuses to find (or indeed look for) anything departing from perfection.  The review is only of any use to the reader if it points out where improvements can be made to accuracy in shape, quality of fit, and choice of schemes/markings.  Certainly better still if the review offers help in these matters rather than just slapping down a potential slur.  After all, reviewers are no more perfect than manufacturers.  Pointing out where the model does better than earlier offerings is equally important, if not more so.

 

If a review pointing out that a kit actually is terrible (when did we ever see one of those?) actually prevents modellers from buying it, GOOD.

 

 

Agree in most parts with your comment, but the problem with reviewers is their (in)experience.  I can see novice people with absolute ignorance (or dislike) for basic modelling skills calling kits "disappointing" or "inaccurate" based on X or Y (favorite) brand or models as reference, instead of the real subject and serious blue prints.  They tend to think it is not usual modellers using filler, sandpaper or sand sticks.  I think a good review should FIRST have a great camera, second, keep silent or only describing what they are presenting for each of us to make the judgement based on our skills and preferences.  

Edited February 4, 2023 by JFM148

[Piotr Mikolajski]

On 2/4/2023 at 4:06 PM, spruecutter96 said:

We'll have to agree to differ on that one. I was quoting a man who has owned/run a model-shop for well over twenty-five years - I would think he knows what he's talking about.

 

Of course he knew what he was talking about. He was talking about sales in his shop. And that's the problem - you're translating one shop's experience into all sales.

 

In one of the larger Polish shops, reboxes from Hobby 2000 have been selling very poorly since the very beginning. Kits could be bought there long after they were officially sold out in other shops. If you drew conclusions based on what the shop owner says about these sales, you would write that Hobby 2000 had a poor business idea.

In my local shop some highly rated kits sell poorly while elsewhere they sell great. The shop owner has been in the business for over 30 years and he knows his customers, so there are no surprises. But if someone don't understand the specifics of the customers and ask him about sales volumes, after receiving a "below average" answer, he will tell you that these highly rated kit sells poorly everywhere.

Each time, the owners tell the truth - in their shops these models sell poorly, that's a fact. But does that mean that these models sell poorly at all? No.

 

Only the producers know what their plans and sales expectations were and what sales really look like. No one else is in a position to assess this. And if the producers say they don't see an impact in either direction, I have no reason to question their opinion.

  

On 2/4/2023 at 4:06 PM, spruecutter96 said:

Also, there was a story about Stevens International (Trumpeter's US distributors) from several years ago...

  

A story from 20 years ago that I don't even know if it fits here, as there are at least two versions. According to some, the model never made it to the market at all, according to others, a small number went on sale, in Asian shops only. According to the former, sales were halted moments before the launch, according to the latter, the model was withdrawn from the market.

 

What is known for sure: Trumpeter prepared an F4F-4 model in 1/32, which neither resembled the Wildcat nor lay in the plans. All the main parts plus a lot of detail were improved on the model, and after six months it went on sale.

To whom modellers really owe the improvement of the model - I don't know. The longer I search for the answer, the more brave knights appear, and there is only one white horse.

Brett Green has written a review before and after, so I'm providing links for those interested to take a look: http://kits.kitreview.com/f4f432previewbg_1.htm and http://kits.kitreview.com/f4f432reviewbg_2.htm

 

I can counter with the story of the Bf 109G in 1/48 from Eduard (#8268) from 2014, which turned out to be oversized. Did negative reviews and numerous complaints on forums affect its sales? No. Despite these reviews Eduard sold this model in large quantities, possibly until the mould's service life was exhausted. Two years later correctly sized 1/48 Bf 109G premiered.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 4:06 PM, spruecutter96 said:

So, manufacturers take no notice of reviews? I beg to differ.

  

I was writing about the impact on sales, especially in a negative context, not whether producers are paying attention.

 

Do manufacturers take notice of reviews? Of course, they send models to reviewers after all. But this serves primarily to let people know that a model is coming on sale. We live in the digital age, the appearance of the company name, the scale and the name of the model on many pages is important - search engines can index it all and the kit is shown in the search results. I was asked once by one of the manufacturers to change the way I was writing catalogue numbers of his products, just for this reason.

 

The only reviews that really can make a deep impact on manufacturers are those in which the reviewer really knows what he is talking about, in which he shows the factory documentation and supplements it with photos and documents, explaining any possible errors. Such reviews can have a real impact, but not on sales, only on corrections, if they can be made. Here I can recall the revised cockpit canopy of the Bf 109E from Eduard or the engine plate in the Panzer III from MiniArt.

 

The problem is that such reviews are a real rarity. To produce such a review, you need a lot of knowledge and sources, and you need to put in a lot of effort. For free, because no one will pay for it, and on top of that, fans of the manufacturer concerned are prepared to eat the critic alive.

Most people writing about kits, even if they know quite a bit about a subject, are not experts on it, or do not have the time for deep analysis. As a result, either they are honest and write nothing, or they want to show their "expertise" and write nonsense.

 

Anyway, for years now we have had a noticeable trend on the forums (and now also in the social media groups / communities / whatever they call it) - if a reviewer describes a model in brief and does not write out a litany of errors (real or not), he is "dishonest", possibly outright "taking money from the manufacturer". The only "honest" reviews are those where the model is tarred and feathered, without, of course, proving the point. After all, "the expert" doesn't have to prove anything.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 4:06 PM, spruecutter96 said:

Admittedly, some modellers couldn't care less about a kit's accuracy (I'm one of them, kinda), but there's a very vocal minority who care very much.

 

And this very vocal minority - most often than not - does not have the slightest idea about how kits are designed, what documentation is available, what the technological requirements are in the industry and so on. Consequently, their long threads with complaints about the product and their unrealistic expectations are of no concern to anyone. 

 

I have seen threads dozens of pages long, where the discussants have become increasingly excited in their dislike of the kit and the manufacturer. To the point where they were contradicting quotes from the factory blueprints or the original manual because they "knew better". And well, such threads and such "reviews" are important for the "reviewer" and the narrow circle of those taking part in the discussion. No one else really cares.

 

A few years ago I was witness of this dialogue in a model shop:
C1: Can I see this kit?
Seller: Here you are.
C1: [Looking at parts] I think it's nice done, I like it.
C2: But this kit is bad.
C1: Really? Why?
C2: Mr. X on forum Y said, this kit has full of errors.
C1: Who the hell is Mr. X and forum Y?

 

The very deep silence in the shop could be cut with a knife.

[Laurent]

47 minutes ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

The problem is that such reviews are a real rarity. To produce such a review, you need a lot of knowledge and sources, and you need to put in a lot of effort.

Indeed. It would be better for the reviewer to use his material and knowledge to actually contribute to the development of the kit not just review it.

[spruecutter96]

1 hour ago, Piotr Mikolajski said:

Of course he knew what he was talking about. He was talking about sales in his shop. And that's the problem - you're translating one shop's experience into all sales.

 

Again, not entirely accurate. I'm talking about a man whose shop is very closely allied to the main Hannant's warehouse, which is easily the biggest model-supplier in the UK (64,000+ stock items at last count, if I remember correctly). His customers can order items from the warehouse, pick them up from the London shop a few days later and get a 10% discount on the list-price.

 

So, I think his selling-experience is probably a lot more accurate and telling than most shop-owners.   

 

Let's leave this here. I can't see there's anything to be gained by simply arguing back-and-forth.  

 

Chris. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by spruecutter96
Amending some information.

[dragonlanceHR]

9 hours ago, Laurent said:

Indeed. It would be better for the reviewer to use his material and knowledge to actually contribute to the development of the kit not just review it.

Provided the maufacturer is up to it. As we have seen several times before it is not always so.

[Gordon J]

Far be it from me to bring the discussion back to the forum topic but has there been any new kits announced from any of the manufacturers who are attending or have attended Nuremberg?

[dragonlanceHR]

Still no one stepped up and made a comprehensive new releases list?

[Homebee]

On 06/02/2023 at 09:54, Gordon J said:

Far be it from me to bring the discussion back to the forum topic but has there been any new kits announced from any of the manufacturers who are attending or have attended Nuremberg?

 

https://www.panzer-modell.de/specials/ontour/nuernberg23/nb.htm

 

V.P.

[sinistervampire319]

ZZZZZZZ.....Wake me at next years spectacular releases.

Edited February 14, 2023 by sinistervampire319

[HMSLion]

What scale is the kitten?  :-)

[czaralko]

2 hours ago, HMSLion said:

What scale is the kitten?  🙂

Looks like 1:3 scale on his way to 1:1

[Bozothenutter]

Wait!

WHAT!?!

There was something in Nuremberg?

[Missick]

2 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

Wait!

WHAT!?!

There was something in Nuremberg?

Yes,  many new kits at Spielwarenmesse. 

You all probably expected something big,  but many new kits will come in 2023.

I never had a chance to go but looks like a nice event.