Decals, Canopies, and a few other questions from my first build!

[Hammer2023]

Hi,

 

I've just joined, and have an introduction post in the intro forum with some photos of my first build which you can find here:

 

The build taught me a lot, but there are some questions it raised that I've not been able to find answers to. I'm hoping the folks here can chip in and point me in the right direction!

 

To my questions:

1. What's the best way to fill the gaps between the fuselage and the canopy? I did all the interior cockpit painting first, and was worried that spreading filler on the gap between canopy and fuselage would squeeze it into the cockpit and ruin the detail and paint work. What's the best approach for filling these gaps? What point in the work flow do you deal with this?

 

2. Decals and panel lines. Do you cut through all the way through the decals along the panel lines (after they're dry and set in place), or do you press them into the gap with a cocktail stick or something, 'scribing' it rather than cutting through?

 

3. Propellors. When do you put these on? They seem to be one of the first things in the instruction build list, but I found it got in the way (and managed to break it off). I see in youtube videos most people seem to leave this off well after the fuselage has been joined, something that seems preferable to me both for not damaging it and not having it in the way. Is there a method to fit this in the intended way after the fuselage is joined, or are people simply gluing the spinner and prop to the nose without the shaft and internal collar? What's the best practice here?

 

Thanks in advance for any and all replies! Any other advice for a newcomer also appreciated!

 

M

[Ngantek]

40 minutes ago, Hammer2023 said:

Hi,

 

I've just joined, and have an introduction post in the intro forum with some photos of my first build which you can find here:

 

The build taught me a lot, but there are some questions it raised that I've not been able to find answers to. I'm hoping the folks here can chip in and point me in the right direction!

 

Welcome. Looks fantastic well done! A few tentative answers to your questions, I imagine you would get quite different ones depending upon who you asked!

 

40 minutes ago, Hammer2023 said:

To my questions:

1. What's the best way to fill the gaps between the fuselage and the canopy? I did all the interior cockpit painting first, and was worried that spreading filler on the gap between canopy and fuselage would squeeze it into the cockpit and ruin the detail and paint work. What's the best approach for filling these gaps? What point in the work flow do you deal with this?

The answer to 'when' is really 'as soon as possible'. The ideal situation is to know, when you fit the canopy, that it will fit perfectly, so any fit issues and fettling, do before you start applying paint to places. The general approach with all assembly to do as much work getting fit right, modifying, minimising seams, as possible to leave as little filling as you can; take your time, dryfit a lot, and don't apply glue until you're sure it's everything's going to fit nicely. The best time to install canopies can vary; depending upon whether you want them posed open (and if so, whether they can be posed closed for painting), but also whether some 'main scheme' painting needs doing underneath them and so on. In the case of the spit with the canopy closed as you've done, it's common to install, masked, onto the model before painting, giving the frames a quick blast of the interior colour, then painting the scheme as normal. Other subjects you'll find it easier to paint the canopy separately and mask the cockpit somehow instead. But yeah, I'd assemble the fuselage, fettle the canopy join, make any repairs to the cockpit edge paint, and then hopefully it'll all still fit when the time comes to glue the canopy on.

 

Generally when gluing canopies, it's common to use PVA glue, since it sets clear, doesn't fog transparencies like poly cement and CA can, and can be reasonably easily removed if necessary. PVA will also do a modest amount of filling work for you should such issues arise, but a better solution is to have done your homework on getting the fit seamless beforehand. If you can't get the job done with just PVA, one can use filler (avoid cement based sprue glue ones of course), I guess use your own feel for how well your filler flows and whether it will be visible.

 

40 minutes ago, Hammer2023 said:

2. Decals and panel lines. Do you cut through all the way through the decals along the panel lines (after they're dry and set in place), or do you press them into the gap with a cocktail stick or something, 'scribing' it rather than cutting through?

Yeah you can cut through, and it can often help sink into the panel lines. The things to watch out for, first make sure you're using a really fresh sharp blade, else the decal will tend to bunch up and get carried with the blade. Avoid taking multiple passes of course. The timing can also help you, best when the decal has bonded but isn't properly dry. This is a case of having a go and getting a feel for it I suspect. Be aware if you're using quite 'hot' sealing varnish over the top (like lacquer based), the decal will be more delicate after the cut, so take it easy. In any case, cut or not, pressing the decal into the detail with the aid of decal solution makes a lot of difference.

 

40 minutes ago, Hammer2023 said:

3. Propellors. When do you put these on? They seem to be one of the first things in the instruction build list, but I found it got in the way (and managed to break it off). I see in youtube videos most people seem to leave this off well after the fuselage has been joined, something that seems preferable to me both for not damaging it and not having it in the way. Is there a method to fit this in the intended way after the fuselage is joined, or are people simply gluing the spinner and prop to the nose without the shaft and internal collar? What's the best practice here?

It depends on if you want the prop to spin, and on the specific kit design here. One necessarily needs to do it early for the old fashioned 'dowel and stopper' design, and I think most modellers favour leaving it till after and living with a fixed prop. Some kits, are designed to allow the prop installation later, while still spinning. Examples would be Airfix's recent Tempest (Prop assembly is a barrel that inserts into the fuselage), F4F (spinning shaft is assembled in the engine) or Tamiya kits (prop slots into a flexible sleeve). It's not uncommon these days. I suppose one could also fit the prop to the fuselage with PVA or a thin blob of blutack (which, poking models on the shelf reveals I appear to have done successfully on occasion). Again my suspicion is that most modellers are not particularly worried about spinning props; and painting with a prop in place is, as you say, a pain.

 

40 minutes ago, Hammer2023 said:

Thanks in advance for any and all replies! Any other advice for a newcomer also appreciated!

 

M

No worries, welcome again, do feel free to ask questions. Making work in progress threads is a good way to share what you're working on and get help as you go along.

 

Andy

[Mark Harmsworth]

I agree about using pva (also called white glue) for attaching the canopy - it can be smoothed with water to achieve a good finish and dries clear. All good points. The slight disadvantage is that it remains soft when cured so cannot be sanded or polished and it does not give a strong bond - but that isn't really needed for canopies.

 

As to the 'when' I would suggest that depends on whether you are building with an open canopy or not. If a closed canopy then attach before painting but if an open canopy (to display that lovely cockpit detail) then I do it after painting. The canopy can be painted separately and attached at the end with the pva glue brush painted.

 

This shows a 1:72 Hurricane with the canopy being painted separately:

The canopy has been masked with the interior colour painted and the cockpit detailed then protected with masking tape and bits of kitchen sponge.

 

You can also see the propeller (and wheels, undercarriage doors and exhausts) being painted separately. 

 

All the best

Mark

[Hammer2023]

Thanks for the responses!

 

I think I'll go with the glued prop when it's a dowel and stopper. Will try cutting the decals next time, as with the spit I only pressed them down, and in some spots they didn't go deep enough into the panel line for the panel wash to get in.

 

The 109 I'm doing next has a 3 part canopy, so will see what impact that has on fit, and what tweaking it will need to get it flush with the cockpit.

[Troy Smith]

On 23/01/2023 at 13:00, Hammer2023 said:

1. What's the best way to fill the gaps between the fuselage and the canopy? I did all the interior cockpit painting first, and was worried that spreading filler on the gap between canopy and fuselage would squeeze it into the cockpit and ruin the detail and paint work. What's the best approach for filling these gaps? What point in the work flow do you deal with this?

I use Wudcare 5 min fast grab PVA, it's a high strength waterproof glue for external carpentry.   I use it for it's intended purpose.

As other have said, try to fettle the fit first.     

If you did need to fill,  you may want to try adding some inert filler to PVA, say talc, which will give it better filing properties.  I apply iyt with a fine brush and you can clean up and gap fill using this with a little water.

 

If you did need to fill,  you may want to try adding some inert filler to PVA, say talc, which will give it better filing properties.  Not tried it, but I have added sawdust to PVA to make hole filler and it works.  One I shall experiment with. 

 

Also worth painting the canopy lower edge with the internal colour, that and a Kleer dip can make them look a lot thinner. 

 

On 23/01/2023 at 13:00, Hammer2023 said:

 

2. Decals and panel lines. Do you cut through all the way through the decals along the panel lines (after they're dry and set in place), or do you press them into the gap with a cocktail stick or something, 'scribing' it rather than cutting through?

Only if they have not bedded down into the panel line.

You can try a using a hot compress to get the decal to bed down,  or use hot water when applying, as this makes them more flexible, and you can press down with a hot cloth as well.  I have kept decal water hot by putting a large metal jar lid onto a coffemachine hot plate which worked for keeping the water hot.

Not all decals are the same, some a fragile,  some a notoriously thick, eg Tamiya,  though one poster says the thickness is heat activated glue, and they need hot water to work. 

see 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235008098-dealing-with-thick-decals-ie-tamiya/#elControls_2464801_menu

 

If you have a spare decal, test it out to see how they behave. 

 

 

It also helped to bed decals in Kleer or similar as well as warm/hot water, as this also helps draw the decals down. 

On 23/01/2023 at 13:00, Hammer2023 said:

 

3. Propellors. When do you put these on?

At the end. 

On 23/01/2023 at 13:00, Hammer2023 said:

They seem to be one of the first things in the instruction build list, but I found it got in the way (and managed to break it off). I see in youtube videos most people seem to leave this off well after the fuselage has been joined, something that seems preferable to me both for not damaging it and not having it in the way. Is there a method to fit this in the intended way after the fuselage is joined,

yes, you can use telescopic metal tubing to make a new shaft.   You will need to add some internal support for this. 

 the shaft should be  say 2cm, and then it will happily sit well, but can easily be removed.

Done carefully and the prop will spin freely.    Which can have it's uses.  

 

 

 

 

On 23/01/2023 at 13:00, Hammer2023 said:

or are people simply gluing the spinner and prop to the nose without the shaft and internal collar? What's the best practice here?

If you have an external shaft, you don't need to glue it.  Can be handy having them removable for transport.   

 

Depending on the kit, you can sometimes just add the back plate,  and attach blade and prop later.    

 

You can of course just fix it later with glue if you prefer.  

 

22 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

and in some spots they didn't go deep enough into the panel line for the panel wash to get in.

 

 

A point on washes,   don't use black, it's too dark, just this looks like a black wash.      Very neat and tidy build though.

 

My 'go to' for washes is artists oil paint, dissolved in lighter fuel.   Very thin, very seeking, evaporates really fast, I have used it straight over Vallejo model color with no barrier with no problems, it evaporates to fast to damge the paint I found.

 

For panel lines, try  'dirty grey', burnt umber with a little black and white, it adds shadow to panel lines without being too stark.   And easy to adjust the colour.    Payne's Grey  is another option for certain base colours.

 

 

from,  

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235052380-hurricane-airfix-72nd-fabric-wing-mki-oob/

 

HTH

[Hammer2023]

Thanks for the lengthy response! Lot's to take in there and try to apply!

 

I used the AK panel liner for green and brown cam on the port wing, and the Tamiya brown panel liner on the starboard one to see which I preferred. I didn't notice much of a difference so didn't amend it to a uniform one. I'll try adding more thinner next time to lessen the effect, although I do tend toward liking a starker tonal value contrast on small scale models. I'm coming to this from a different angle to traditional modelling though, from the wargames miniatures end of things, where pushing the contrast is the popular approach these days, that is to say having quite a range of tonal value in any given colour to create the perception of volume. It may well be considered a bit cartoonish for this type of modelling, though.

 

I like that tube idea for dealing with the prop. I'm going to order a few grades of brass tube and will give it a go, if not on my current build then the one after.

 

A follow on question, if I may.

 

-Does klear do anything additionally or that micro sol won't do? I've seen it being mentioned before, but gather it can be hard to get in this part of the world.

 

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

Does klear do anything additionally or that micro sol won't do? I've seen it being mentioned before, but gather it can be hard to get in this part of the world.

yes.  You are bedding the decals into some dilute varnish,  over the same varnish, it also acts as extra decal adhesive.   

The Micro product I use more of  is the Microsol, the one that AFAIK is basically strong vinegar (acetic acid).   

There are other Kleer related products, including actual modelling products.

I'm not up on what is available in Ireland.    @Grey Beema @Marklo  maybe able to advise.   @Black Knight  is in the north.

It was a technique I read about on here,   and I was very impressed at how it worked,  on the Hurricane the KW roundel Z is one decal, it completely blended in the carrier film. 

 

 

I stuck my sig line on 'whatever works for you'  as I'd see people, more often the returnees  thinking they need X, Y and Z product,  I'm sure some are better than some of my options,  some maybe not.    

I have seen plenty of disagreement on materials and paints as well. 

I've not done masses of builds, but years of reading and absorbing and experimenting led me to techniques and materials I found worked,  I have tried to describe them.

I noted in your current bf109 build a very neat pilot.   The oil paint/lighter fuel wash will do that outlining you talk about using a black base really easily.

this is 72nd Matchbox pilot that was oil washed

 

fuller rundown here of the technique.  

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235072084-132-airfix-paratrooper-officer/

 

I try to document how certain effects were achieved in case it is of use to others, and that they were done without a mass of specialist products, and at the moment I brush paint,   and use a really cheap point and shoot camera,  mostly because the batteries last ages, and unlike 'better' cameras it doesn't show every tiny flaw and produces something on screen that look like what I see.

I mention to stress that you don't need to spend a fortune on kit,  it's more about how you use what you have, and to get others to to go "I can do that"  as opposed to the really high end builds,  which are quite intimidating. 

Some of my more 'clever' builds are in the "stalled" category though.    And I have a 72nd PST brand  ISU -152 on the desk which has been a mojo sapper,  i was taken by paint schemes,  but while  the detail is good, the parts clean up is trying and the instructions are poor...  

No WIP on that one either.    

I should get myself on a group build again as they can be good for getting things done.  

 

4 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

although I do tend toward liking a starker tonal value contrast on small scale models. I'm coming to this from a different angle to traditional modelling though, from the wargames miniatures end of things, where pushing the contrast is the popular approach these days, that is to say having quite a range of tonal value in any given colour to create the perception of volume. It may well be considered a bit cartoonish for this type of modelling, though.

There are plenty of cartoonish modelling techniques....  To an extent what you re talking about is part of the "Spanish School"    As i like research,  i know where to look for images to illustrate points,   and have tried to stress to members the importance of studying relevant photos, and not other models if you are trying to make more realistic model.

 

But, it's your model,  to build and finish as you wish.   It maybe worth mentioning that is your aim though. 

 

One of the really positives on here is you get help and support,  not sniping and snarky comments, which is encouraging.    I can see that you are a returnee to aircraft but are skilled from wargames miniatures,  so you are just expanding your existing skill sets, hope  you can find something of use from my posts. 

5 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

I'm going to order a few grades of brass tube and will give it a go,

Always handy stuff to have.   I used some brass rod and a bit of tube which fitted on the Spitfire, from some modelling stuff I was given.

 

The fine tubing can be very handy,   I made some replacement MG from out of Albion brass nesting tubing, main parts are 0.6 mm, collars of 0.8mm. 

 

I was able to slightly flare the tubing ends, and am rather pleased with the result.    Actually, the close up looks even better than I had hoped. 

 

Yes, I should have looked up and worked out the correct barrel size,  but I was on a roll and it was working. 

cut by rolling tube with a scalpel.  flaring done by twirling a small nail in the end, having tried my 'needle in a pin vice' tool first.  

 

The little grey bit is the original barrel....

 

from https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235071371-airfix-cromwell-been-a-long-time-since-i-did-a-tank/ 

 

 

note the link about tracks..

 

if you referred to models,  you'd be under the impression tank tracks rust and have shiny steel highlights....  which they don't, and is something I learned from the linked thread in the link. 

 

cheers

T

[Grey Beema]

@Hammer2023 I’m based in Dublin, where are you based?

 

 

[Marklo]

Klear is impossible to get in this part of the world. You could try eBay but it won’t be cheap. I use Microset and microsol on a regular basis both of which you should be able to get from Marks models ( they’re pretty good for products) or online. If I’m having adhesion issues I use either clear varnish or watered down microscale Kristal Klear a clear pva watered down should work just as well and you should be able to get that anywhere. Hope that helps.

[Hammer2023]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

I didn't think Klear was available here, but now that I've worked out which way around to use Micro set and sol, I'm happy with them as for the build I just did, at least for the nice thin decals that came with the airfix kit. I'll have to see how I get on if I encounter thicker ones.

 

Cutting or pressing along the panel lines both seem to have their advocates and I'm torn between the two. A silly thing to get stuck on but I don't like the idea of cutting things if I don't have to, but do want to get the best looking end result I can.

 

I've spent a lot of time looking at examples on Ettiene du Plessis's amazing Flickr collection (which you can find here, if you've not come across  it: https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/albums/72157605269786717/page1), and for the most part, as best I can tell, they don't seem as heavily embedded in the panel lines as cutting would create, but then again, occasionally they do. I'm leaning towards giving them a few applications of Micro Sol and leaving them however they end up, and not putting any panel lining wash over them. I'll see how that goes on my current 109 build.

 

In saying all of that, I'm reminded of the old modellers adage - 'we're not trying to create reality, we're trying to create the perception of reality'!

Edited January 25, 2023 by Hammer2023

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

I didn't think Klear was available here, but now that I've worked out which way around to use Micro set and sol, I'm happy with them as for the build I just did, at least for the nice thin decals that came with the airfix kit. I'll have to see how I get on if I encounter thicker ones.

There are similar products. All Kleer is/was is a self levelling acrylic floor varnish.  The self levelling was the important bit (possibly why it helps pull decals down)

There is likely a similar/same product available,  The other advantage was rather than a teensy modellers bottle, it came in  a big bottle.   

Lakeland Quickshine 

 

These look like they are in the same category

https://www.amazon.co.uk/easy-HYGIENE-METALLISED-Surface-Emulsion/dp/B07WTX2C5K/

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BNBSM41N

 

I'm going to make some inquiries,  as it's always useful to know what a product actually is.  Probably quite a lot to risk buying unless you happen to have some floors that need doing as well

This looks like it is the same kind of thing...

http://www.cloverchem.co.uk/2013/uk/product_detail.asp?prod_code='109'&range_sub='1'

 

 

2 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

 

Cutting or pressing along the panel lines both seem to have their advocates and I'm torn between the two. A silly thing to get stuck on but I don't like the idea of cutting things if I don't have to, but do want to get the best looking end result I can.

well don't cut.  Warm/hot watter really helps soften them up, and a hot compress works as well.   Since the two kits question are Airfix,  they have deep and wide panel lines,  if you brush paint they get reduced a fair bit. 

 

2 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

 

I've spent a lot of time looking at examples on Ettiene du Plessis's amazing Flickr collection (which you can find here, if you've not come across  it: https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/albums/72157605269786717/page1),

@Etiennedup  is a member here, and his photo stream in one I use for detail examples frequently, as it collates a lot of period colour and is superb for illustrating specific details. 

Tip  this links to all of the pictures tagged 'spitfire'

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=spitfire

 

if you change Spitfire to Hurricane, or any other plane name of interest it searches those up, and seems a lot easier than the Flickr search, or I'm just being dim about how to use it.... anyway, works for me.

2 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

and for the most part, as best I can tell, they don't seem as heavily embedded in the panel lines as cutting would create, but then again, occasionally they do. I'm leaning towards giving them a few applications of Micro Sol and leaving them however they end up, and not putting any panel lining wash over them. I'll see how that goes on my current 109 build.

 

 

 

Again, try hot water.   If you are doing a panel line wash but not over the decals it can look odd.  

I go for an overall oil wash, and remove most of it with solvent damped brush,  in the airflow direction,  the little that remains on the surface really helps to blend in the decals and modulate the paint finish.    In my case this maybe more to a brushed paint job. 

 

decals over Kleer

 

oil washed

 

Matt varnished in daylight

 

 

2 hours ago, Hammer2023 said:

 

In saying all of that, I'm reminded of the old modellers adage - 'we're not trying to create reality, we're trying to create the perception of reality'!

Indeed ! 

 

cheers

T

[Grey Beema]

I think Klear is now a Pledge floor cleaning product but I can’t remember which.  I see that Supervalue stock Pledge products so I’ll try figure which it is and post it up.

 

I use Microsol on decals, paint it on the model under the decal and over the decal, and push the decal hard into panel lines as the decals soften.  Leave the decal to dry out.  If it hasn’t settled to your satisfaction, reapply the Microsol then you can pick the decal or push down into the panel line with something narrow (I drag a needle down the panel line).

 

IPMS Ireland has a FB page that might be worth taking a butchers at..

[ckw]

1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

I think Klear is now a Pledge floor cleaning product but I can’t remember which

Last time I bought some it was called "Pledge Revive It" which is supposed to be the same as the original Future/Kleer.  There are other products which may or may not be pretty much the same thing. My concern though would be yellowing over time. Future has been used for decades and I'm not aware of any reports of yellowing.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Grey Beema]

53 minutes ago, ckw said:

Last time I bought some it was called "Pledge Revive It" which is supposed to be the same as the original Future/Kleer.  There are other products which may or may not be pretty much the same thing. My concern though would be yellowing over time. Future has been used for decades and I'm not aware of any reports of yellowing.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

 

Thats the stuff.

[Rob de Bie]

On 1/23/2023 at 2:00 PM, Hammer2023 said:

To my questions:

1. What's the best way to fill the gaps between the fuselage and the canopy? I did all the interior cockpit painting first, and was worried that spreading filler on the gap between canopy and fuselage would squeeze it into the cockpit and ruin the detail and paint work. What's the best approach for filling these gaps? What point in the work flow do you deal with this?

 

I would recommend an epoxy clay, like Milliput or Apoxie. You can apply it to the fuselage, wet it, then push the canopy carefully down, and remove it again. Let it cure, remove the excess, and you'll have a perfectly fitting canopy. Here's the only photos I ever took of this process.

 

 

 

Rob

 

[Rob de Bie]

On 1/23/2023 at 2:00 PM, Hammer2023 said:

2. Decals and panel lines. Do you cut through all the way through the decals along the panel lines (after they're dry and set in place), or do you press them into the gap with a cocktail stick or something, 'scribing' it rather than cutting through?

 

It depends heavily on the decal brand / manufacturer. My generic recommendation would be to use the surplus decals of the sheet (in case of multiple marking options) on a test model, to learn how they work. I basically do that with every model I build. It will also help you to find a method that avoids silvering. Here are two examples, with the resulting models. Note that I paint the testbeds along with the model, so I'm testing the decals on the same surface,

 

 

 

 

Rob

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Rob de Bie