FAA Colors In Gunze Range

[boom.boom]

I'm currently at the painting process of Special Hobby Blackburn Roc Mk.I in 1/48 and the manual suggests Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Gray and Sky Grey. First of all, is the color scheme well suggested by SH?
And second is Gunze dilemma... Wandering through the internet, I came up with the following equivalent:
Extra Dark Sea Gray=Mr.Color 333
Dark Slate Grey=H421
Sea Gray=Mr.Color 325
Do you agree with the suggested Gunze colors? If you think they are not adequate, I would ask for your corrections and suggestions.
Forgive me if this topic has been elaborated, but I am not sure that I have found a definitive solution (to a satisfactory extent).

[PhantomBigStu]

Not familiar with the range but can say 333 is correct as that is what gunze make for extra dark sea grey, the other two though are meant to be different colours from different countries 

[Ngantek]

Sea Grey I haven't tried, but the colour names are correct for early-war temperate sea scheme, that would be used on aircraft such as the Roc until probably until early 1941. The other two.. well 333 is pretty good my most accounts.  DSG there doesn't seem to be a perfect match, two suggestions from this excellent guide would be Olive drab C012, which of course is a bit too brown, but was used as an equivalent for some lend-lease aircraft. The second is your suggestion of H421, RLM81 braunviolett is also included there. If you want to see a visual comparison, I did a rather shabby and entirely not colour calibrated swatch here. To my eye it still looked a little browny warmy, but YMMV. Depending upon how you build, I suspect they're close enough that you could alter a little to taste, or find the variation not great after shading, weathering and (if necessary) a light mist coat to bring the colours together.

Andy

[Dunny]

Hi,

 

I used aqueous acrylics for my Roc - Mr Hobby 333, Vallejo 71309 Dark Slate Grey, and Vallejo 71507 Sky Grey. Here is the model:

 

 

 

I use these colours for all my FAA builds and find them very reliable. Hope this helps,

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

Edited January 19 by Dunny
Added pic

[Troy Smith]

42 minutes ago, Ngantek said:

DSG there doesn't seem to be a perfect match, two suggestions from this excellent guide

It patchy and misleading.  Eg ANA 613 is NOT the browner form of Olive Drab. I know this was linked good faith but it gets things mixed up quite  often

 

Many of the paints listed are claimed to be a certain colour  but are not.  Eg Xtracylix Extra Dark Sea Grey is a pppr match to the RAF museum chips, as are many of their colours. The Spanish paint companies seem more miss than hit.

 

Dark Slate Grey is a greenish olive grey, but not brown. 

 

@Casey has done matches using Tamiya paint mixes,  which can be quite revealing.  EDSG has subtle purple-blue hue for example.   I have just been taking advantage  of sunny winter days to do some paint matching, coincidently including DSG and EDSG. 

 

 

 

[dogsbody]

What I have in the Paint stash:

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Ngantek]

11 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

It patchy and misleading.  Eg ANA 613 is NOT the browner form of Olive Drab. I know this was linked good faith but it gets things mixed up quite  often

 

Many of the paints listed are claimed to be a certain colour  but are not.  Eg Xtracylix Extra Dark Sea Grey is a pppr match to the RAF museum chips, as are many of their colours. The Spanish paint companies seem more miss than hit.

 

Dark Slate Grey is a greenish olive grey, but not brown. 

 

@Casey has done matches using Tamiya paint mixes,  which can be quite revealing.  EDSG has subtle purple-blue hue for example.   I have just been taking advantage  of sunny winter days to do some paint matching, coincidently including DSG and EDSG. 

 

 

 

Always happy to be corrected, being colourblind, I'm particularly reliant on guides, especially for colours like Dark Slate Grey, which circles all the hues I have trouble with. I will remember for future reference, although I'm not particularly fond of the gunze options for TSS in any case!

[alt-92]

12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

It patchy and misleading.

So what WAS used as equivalent in Lend-Lease factory delivered ANA paintjobs for Dark Slate Grey? 

 

--

Most important part related to the question is the subject matter at hand: the Blackburn Roc. 
So it would make sense to have a proper FAA DSG match even if Gunze does not carry that instead of going down the rabbit hole of L-L FAA colours.

 

From a purely paint-application aspect, the AK Real Color range behaves similarly to Gunze when used with either their own thinner or Leveling Thinner.  Then it comes down to whether you can accept the mentioned alternatives from the list lacking the preferred brand's options.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

what WAS used as equivalent in Lend-Lease factory delivered ANA paintjobs for Dark Slate Grey? 

 

ANA 613 Olive Drab.  It's greener than OD 41.

My comment on the linked guide, is the compiler has made a fair few errors, often inverting data, eg ANA 613 is browner.

The list of model paints takes no account of if what the claim to be is anything like how they should be...

It was a good effort, shame it's  no longer being updated or corrected.

[Seawinder]

18 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

... The Spanish paint companies seem more miss than hit.

 

Dark Slate Grey is a greenish olive grey, but not brown.

Hi Troy. Are you referring specifically to AK? I've just picked up AK Real Colors versions of Dark Slate Grey and EDSG. They look to be in the ballpark, at least comparing to photos of various models, although they're both quite a bit lighter than the digital file I've got of the RAF Museum chips. For example, the Museum chip for EDSG looks virtually black; I don't think I've ever seen it represented that way in a model paint.

[dogsbody]

Some months ago, I bought some AK Real colours. I thought some of the colours were a bit dark, especially the Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[boom.boom]

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE ANSWERS, REALLY!!!
I have to admit that I see DSG (on the Internet) in all possible shades, from classic gray, over drab to light green!? When I look at the Humbrol 224, it is quite drub and looks a lot like the Gunze C304. If I am guided by the fact that it should be more greenish than drab, then better match is Gunze H421! Gunze H421 is also darker from C304 and it is much closer to EDSG Gunze C333 in shade. The next one I'm considering is the Gunze H423 which is again a bit darker and greener. For now, H421 still seems the closest to me.
Special Hobby's suggestion for Sky Gray is Gunze C325, which after inspecting it doesn't seem likely at all! Too much light in the first place. For Sky Gray, Gunze C334 works best to my eyes, which is a little bit lighter than Humrol 167.
Therefore, my next the FAA TSS proposal is:
EDSG...Gunze C 333
DSG...Gunze H421
SG...Gunze C334

[boom.boom]

Here is some paint chips (very bad one...)

 

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, Seawinder said:

Hi Troy. Are you referring specifically to AK? I've just picked up AK Real Colors versions of Dark Slate Grey and EDSG. They look to be in the ballpark, at least comparing to photos of various models, although they're both quite a bit lighter than the digital file I've got of the RAF Museum chips. For example, the Museum chip for EDSG looks virtually black; I don't think I've ever seen it represented that way in a model paint.

No, it was in general Pip.   I don't have the Ak Colors,  I have another AK set, AK interactive, which are poor matches.

EDSG is dark on the RAF museum chips, but it's not black.    More in the realms of RLM 66 Schwarzgrau.   It is a Munsell purple blue (see below)

1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

I bought some AK Real colours. I thought some of the colours were a bit dark, especially the Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey.

try brush out on plastic card Chris,  as card car may absorb and give a denser colour (or this maybe cobblers...) and  the compare to RAF museum chips in daylight.

Make a 'viewer' get a piece of grey card, and cut a pair of slots in it,  sya 1/2 in high by inch wide, about an inch apart and then place the a chip under each.

Done in daylight if your colour vision is good is way to up paints by eye.

20 minutes ago, boom.boom said:

I have to admit that I see DSG (on the Internet) in all possible shades, from classic gray, over drab to light green!?

none of these,  it medium greeny grey. 

 

 

This was posted up by @Casey

note after the colour chips there are Munsell values

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system

"The system consists of three independent properties of color which can be represented cylindrically in three dimensions as an irregular color solid:

hue, measured by degrees around horizontal circles

chroma, measured radially outward from the neutral (gray) vertical axis

value, measured vertically on the core cylinder from 0 (black) to 10 (white)"

 

The Munsell color system, showing: a circle of hues at value 5 chroma 6; the neutral values from 0 to 10; and the chromas of purple-blue (5PB) at value 5.

 

Specifically for Dark Slate grey,  it is classified a green, Hue= 2.11 G  (green) Value =4.61 (mid tone) Chroma 1.44 (weak)  or mid greeny grey. 

 

EDSG is classified as purple blue

Sky is a yellow green. 

 

The advantage of the Munsell is you can get an idea of the what the colour really is if you don't have the RAF museum chips. 

I'm not really comfortable with Munsell myself as yet,  but I now have quite a range of actual paint chip charts so i can use those, but it really helps get an idea of colour.     It would be worth modellers getting a cheap et of water colours and doing some basic paint mixing, whi ch is not as simple as the basic taught in school. 

 

The problems with model paint is most are already pigment mixes, and some pigments are very strong, and can easily shift mixes,  and it really takes pratice and time, and lots of mixes and brush outs.   

That said I have learned an awful lot about 'seeing' pigments in paint,  but it's taken a lot of practice to do this.

24 minutes ago, boom.boom said:

Here is some paint chips (very bad one...)

if the photos I see are anything like the paints, 

 

423 is the best 'match' I can see, being a greeny grey

78 is too brown, 421 looks like olive drab, 30 look like a greeny brown. 

 

this Seafire image of very slightly faded paint gives an excellent idea of the colours, note the roundel colours, dark blue brick red, orange hued yellow. 

Seafires , 1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

  

as I said, a mid greeny grey, and a dark grey, the purple blue hue is very subtle in EDSG,  it's only really apparent if you have it next to a neutral grey, a simple black/white mix, that you see any difference, and only that EDSG is not as stark as a plain B/W mix. 

@Casey Tamiya mix should give an idea

Extra Dark Sea Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 23 parts (DE00: 0.45)
        XF-2 - Flat White: 16
        XF-1 - Flat Black: 4
        XF-8 - Flat Blue: 2
        XF-7 - Flat Red: 1

 

RAF012 - Dark Slate Grey - Flat
    Suggested using total of 5 parts (DE00: 0.41)
        XF-2 - Flat White: 3
        XF-1 - Flat Black: 1
        XF-4 - Yellow Green: 1

 

 

This scan looks good too me for getting the basic idea, an d I have spent hours now comparing colours with this.

 

see here for more

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235109029-british-aviation-colours-of-world-war-two-book-insert-spectrophtometer-readouts-and-sample-recipes-using-tamiya-and-golden-fluid-acrylics/

 

 

[Chuck1945]

Always tough to judge based on a screen display, but on my screen 423 has a green shade while 421 just looks brown.

 

edit: Troy slipped his reply in as I was typing mine, but yes, based on the way the colors look on my screen, 423 is much closer to Dark Slate Grey than is 421

Edited January 21 by Chuck1945

[Casey]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

This scan looks good too me for getting the basic idea, an d I have spent hours now comparing colours with this.

If you want higher resolution of this scan, it is here:

 

Large resolution scan of British Colours of World War Two insert

 

You *might* want to use the color values (L*a*b*, RGB) from the table above, they are from calibrated spectrophotometer while the scan is from cheap scanner...

Edited January 21 by Casey
Changed to link.

[Seawinder]

6 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Some months ago, I bought some AK Real colours. I thought some of the colours were a bit dark, especially the Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey.

 

 

I'm looking at my two bottles of AK Real Colors DSG and EDSG. They're nothing like as dark as your samples.

 

 

Chris

 

[alt-92]

Just to add: AK RC is supposed to be 'optimized' for airbrush, so that may also play a role - @dogsbody 's samples are brushpainted, I guess?

[Graham Boak]

I don't think that being optimised for airbrushing (i.e. already thinned so that you get less paint for the same amount of money) should make any difference to the shade.  But how trustworthy is the AK colour?

 

EDSG is one of those colours which change noticeably between reference and real life.  It seems to have quite rapidly become a little lighter and distinctly bluer.  Those Seafires were still pretty new, but are clearly quite different from what comes in tins, even tins which match the original reference.=

[dogsbody]

6 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Just to add: AK RC is supposed to be 'optimized' for airbrush, so that may also play a role - @dogsbody 's samples are brushpainted, I guess?

 

Yes.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[alt-92]

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

(i.e. already thinned so that you get less paint for the same amount of money)

Which is not the case with AK RC at all, so I'm suspecting you haven't used them.

 

What it does mean is that the coverage of paint and intensity is different from brushing them as opposed to airbrushing.

[Graham Boak]

As I don't generally use an airbrush, I am not familiar with all possible variations.  However the first rule of airbrushing enamel is to thin the paint so that it will spray cleanly.  Thus a tin of enamel paint will produce perhaps twice the volume of a tin of paint already "airbrush-ready".  I entirely agree that airbrushing paints will produce covering/intensity different to that of traditional means, but that is something different.

[alt-92]

You're now sliding further down the rabbit hole by making it airbrush ready. 

 

I just mentioned that it is not the case, AK RC paints require thinning before airbrushing (be that with their own thinner, or Mr.hobby leveling thinners).

[edit]

Forgive me the direct, perhaps typical Dutch bluntness, but I do feel it is a bit odd to render a blanket judgment on a paint brand while not having hands-on experience with that brand. 

[Graham Boak]

So just what magic is it that makes it more appropriate for airbrushing than thinned enamels, and in what way? 

 

This is of course assuming that you can get the appropriate colour with AK paints, which from comment elsewhere appears to be in doubt.  I have recently bought a book on Japanese AFVs from AK, and not one of the excellent modellers featured inside has used the AK colours advertised for the role on the inside rear cover.  Not a great advertisement.

[alt-92]

So, still no primary evidence or personal experience. Fine.

 

I'll grab some shots in proper daylight tomorrow, but this is under a 'daylight' lamp.