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Fairey Fulmar - Questions - Operation Pedestal and Operation Torch


diamant

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Hi

 

I am doing the research for our next project and I wonder if someone could help me.

 

There are a lot of profiles of two Fairey Fulmar that I would like to add but so far I was not able to find any photo of them. I prefer not to do a model without at least a photo of each one.

 

1) Any Fulmar with the tail painted in yellow. Like this one. Fairey Fulmar X8812 6F HMS Victorious during Operation Pedestal in August 1942.

Image of the Fairey Fulmar | X8812 | F6 - Wing's Palette (wpalette.com)

 

2) Any Fulmar with the Roundel US type. Like this one. Fairey Fulmar DR641 6B 809 squadron HMS Victorious during Operation Torch in November 1942

Fairey Fulmar NF Mk.II | HLJ.com

 

Thank you very much in advance.

 

Kind regards

Santiago

 

 

Edited by diamant
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Hi

 

Thank you very much for your reply (Chris and Jerry)

 

1) Regarding my first inquired (Fulmar - Operation Pedestal) so far I have this:

 

Although this was the photo mentioned on the old BM Thread

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205185916

 

this second photo is in my opinion much conclusive regarding the yellow tail.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205148954

 

 

Two more photos related

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205148957

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205148958

 

 

This is something strange comparing the first two photos. In the first photo, the Fulmar G had the side intakes but in the second photo, it had not.  

 

Also, I notice that the different profiles and box art shows the Fairey Fulmar X8812 6F HMS Victorious during Operation Pedestal in August 1942 with Type A1 fuselage roundels and 24x27 fin flash but I am not sure if that is correct. 

 

If you see the fin flash of the Fulmar F its looks like it was 24x24 type so probably the fuselage roundels were Type C1 instead of Type A1. Could I assume that the "G" had the same fuselage markings as the "F"? Which also concurs with the markings applied on the Hurricanes.

 

I will really appreciate any comments and correction.

 

Kind regards

Santiago

 

 

Edited by diamant
typing mistake
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11 hours ago, diamant said:

This is something strange comparing the first two photos. In the first photo, the Fulmar G had the side intakes but in the second photo, it had not.

In the second photo the right hand Fulmar is a Mk I without the side carburettor intakes, it has an aircraft letter G under the engine but different to the first photo, the first photo the right hand aircraft is a Mk II & is also aircraft letter G, all these photos can be blown up using the + under the right side of the photo, easy to see then. Even though these look a similar photo, they must have been taken at different times.  :) Knowing this, it might be hard to be sure the box art is showing the same aircraft F as the photo. Pedestal was quite soon after the type C roundels came into use so it might not be a surprise to find some aircraft had not had their markings changed. :unsure:

Steve.

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My interest in Pedestal was directed at the Sea Hurricanes rather than the Fulmars, but the Yellow fin was part of an Admiralty instruction to all vessels involved.  We know Victorious received this message because her Sea Hurricanes carried this marking.  Therefore her Fulmars did too.

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On 12/31/2022 at 4:14 PM, diamant said:

Hi

 

Thank you very much for your reply (Chris and Jerry)

 

1) Regarding my first inquired (Fulmar - Operation Pedestel) so far I have this:

 

Although this was the photo mentioned on the old BM Thread

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205185916

 

this second photo is in my opinion much conclusive regarding the yellow tail.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205148954

 

 

Two more photos related

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205148957

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205148958

 

 

This is something strange comparing the first two photos. In the first photo, the Fulmar G had the side intakes but in the second photo, it had not.  

 

Also, I notice that the different profiles and box art shows the Fairey Fulmar X8812 6F HMS Victorious during Operation Pedestal in August 1942 with Type A1 fuselage roundels and 24x27 fin flash but I am not sure if that is correct. 

 

If you see the fin flash of the Fulmar F its looks like it was 24x24 type so probably the fuselage roundels were Type C1 instead of Type A1. Could I assume that the "G" had the same fuselage markings as the "F"? Which also concurs with the markings applied on the Hurricanes.

 

I will really appreciate any comments and correction.

 

Kind regards

Santiago

HMS Victorious had two Fulmar squadrons aboard for Operation Pedestal, Nos. 809 and 884.

From what I can see:

  • first photo (IWM A 15963): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Fulmar II 'P' (might read 'F' as well, photo is not clear, but compare with second photo);
  • second photo (IWM A 15960): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane '7U', Fulmar II 'P';
  • third photo (IWM A 15957): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane '7X', Fulmar II (unidentified but different from first and second photo, notice darker spinner), Fulmar I 'G';
  • fourth photo (IWM A 11295): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane '7U', Fulmar II 'P', Fulmar II 'G' (note style of 'G' is different from the third photo)

I'd suggest 885 Sqn and 809 Sqn for the first, second and fourth photos. In my opinion the third photo shows a different group of aircraft where Fulmars might come from 884 Sqn.

 

P.S.:  not all Mk. IIs had the additional "cheek" intakes. Although lacking them, Fulmar 'G' could be a Mk. II like all others, which seems more likely for mid-1942.

Edited by ClaudioN
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42 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

 

  • third photo (IWM A 15957): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane '7X', Fulmar II (unidentified but different from first and second photo, notice darker spinner), Fulmar I 'G';

 

42 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

 

Claudio,  If you zoom right into the Fulmar II, on its starboard wing outer panel fold is that a 5A(?) painted on the outer panel end?

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12 hours ago, stevehnz said:

In the second photo the right hand Fulmar is a Mk I without the side carburettor intakes, it has an aircraft letter G under the engine but different to the first photo, the first photo the right hand aircraft is a Mk II & is also aircraft letter G, all these photos can be blown up using the + under the right side of the photo, easy to see then. Even though these look a similar photo, they must have been taken at different times.  :) Knowing this, it might be hard to be sure the box art is showing the same aircraft F as the photo. Pedestal was quite soon after the type C roundels came into use so it might not be a surprise to find some aircraft had not had their markings changed. :unsure:

Steve.

Thank you very much Steve for your post. Ok. So in terms of doing a model I will try to used these photos as a reference. Since I can see the fin flash for the aircraft F of the second photo ( Mk II with the side carburettor intakes). So now the problem will be to get the serial number for this aircraft. If not I will try to do the aircraft G of the very same photo (Mk I) (A 15957) assuming it had the same roundel´s type. Any idea about the serial of these Fulmars?

 

12 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

Try seaching Pedestal not Pedestel

Sorry, my mistake. I will edit the post to correct it.

 

 

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

My interest in Pedestal was directed at the Sea Hurricanes rather than the Fulmars, but the Yellow fin was part of an Admiralty instruction to all vessels involved.  We know Victorious received this message because her Sea Hurricanes carried this marking.  Therefore her Fulmars did too.

Thanks Graham for your comment. We did the Sea Hurricane, now it is Fulmar time!!!. I have seleceted 21 models to be done so far. I would love to add one of these.

 

 

55 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

HMS Victorious had two Fulmar squadrons aboard for Operation Pedestal, Nos. 809 and 884.

From what I can see:

  • first photo (IWM A 15963): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Fulmar II 'P' (might read 'F' as well, photo is not clear, but compare with second photo);
  • second photo (IWM A 15960): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane '7U', Fulmar II 'P';
  • third photo (IWM A 15957): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane '7X', Fulmar II (unidentified but different from first and second photo, notice darker spinner), Fulmar I 'G';
  • fourth photo (IWM A 11295): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane '7U', Fulmar II 'P', Fulmar II 'G' (note style of 'G' is different from the third photo)

I'd suggest 885 Sqn and 809 Sqn for the first, second and fourth photos. In my opinion the third photo shows a different group of aircraft where Fulmars might come from 884 Sqn.

 

Thank you very much Claudio for your post. If I understood correctly, I  should look on the 884 Sqn to find the serial numbers.

 

Any comments about the Fulmars used on the Operation Torch? I was not able to find any photo of them.

 

Cheers

Santiago

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  • diamant changed the title to Fairey Fulmar - Questions - Operation Pedestal and Operation Torch

Fairey Fulmar Mk.ll, 6F⦾ s/n X8812: 809 Sqn Victorious ('6F') 6.42; Damaged Ju88, landed Indomitable 11.8.42; Ju88 probable 12.8.42. (both S/L RJH Grose); Wing hit by enemy fighters diving out of the sun 12.8.42 (Lt. LJ Wallace); 781 Sqn Lee ('J') 11.42; En route from St. Merryn, into ground in low visibility, BO, Yelland Farm, Tanners Hill, Holdsworthy Rd, ¼ mile west of Okehampton, Cat. Z 18.1.43 (Lt. RRWR Trafford and AA4 JW Tyrrell killed)

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2 hours ago, fubar57 said:

Fairey Fulmar Mk.ll, 6F⦾ s/n X8812: 809 Sqn Victorious ('6F') 6.42; Damaged Ju88, landed Indomitable 11.8.42; Ju88 probable 12.8.42. (both S/L RJH Grose); Wing hit by enemy fighters diving out of the sun 12.8.42 (Lt. LJ Wallace); 781 Sqn Lee ('J') 11.42; En route from St. Merryn, into ground in low visibility, BO, Yelland Farm, Tanners Hill, Holdsworthy Rd, ¼ mile west of Okehampton, Cat. Z 18.1.43 (Lt. RRWR Trafford and AA4 JW Tyrrell killed)

Thank you very much for your addition. I will go for this one, (Fairey Fulmar Mk.ll, 6F⦾ s/n X8812: 809 Sqn Victorious ('6F') and as per the previous photos I would assume that it had the Type C1 and Type C roundels instead of A1 and A (due to the fin flash seen on the photos)..

 

I will also add a black F under the nose (not mentioned in the decals option with the kit).

 

I not sure about the full span yellow leading edges. I am not able to understand the photos on this issue.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

Claudio,  If you zoom right into the Fulmar II, on its starboard wing outer panel fold is that a 5A(?) painted on the outer panel end?

Sharp eyes.

That would be a rather staggered layout... I zoomed into Fulmar 'P' in the other photo and the shape that might be taken for 'A' is also there, it appears to be part of the wing fold fittings. What you read as '5' would point to an Albacore squadron, very unlikely. A single letter 'S' might be possible, its location rather unusual.

 

Roundels during Pedestal are an interesting aspect. The change from A/A1 to C/C1 was fairly recent and seemingly had not yet propagated throughout the Fleet. Indomitable came from the Eastern Fleet and all of her Sea Hurricanes carried A/A1 roundels. Victorious arrived from the Home Fleet and her Sea Hurricanes are shown carrying C/C1 roundels. Fulmars are harder to tell, but the fin flash seen on some of the photos also points to C/C1 roundels for them. As the ship came straight from the UK, I think C/C1 roundels for all aircraft aboard is a reasonably safe assumption. Eagle is interesting, since she had been deployed with Force H for some months, but had recently received replacement aircraft from the UK. The mix of Sea Hurricanes with A/A1 and C/C1 roundels is peculiar, and well documented in one of the British Pathe newsreels.

 

Yellow on the wing leading edges of Fulmars is hard to discern. Perhaps faintly visible, maybe not... but it should be there.

Edited by ClaudioN
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Hi Claudio

 

Thank you very much for your explanation which is very useful.

 

I have to say that after seeing the books we have several times I found one photo of a Fulmar showing the special markings for the Torch Operation (Warpaint book page 36). Although the serial number cannot seen it is enought for me to add it to our series. I am quite happy with it.

 

Cheers

Santiago

 

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Most of the kits came with the option of the Mk II DR641 6B of the 809 Squadron with the Operation Torch markings.

 

Looking at book Fleet Air Arm 1939-1945 of Ray Sturtivan (Air Britain Publication) this is what it says about the DR641

 

Quote

DR641 DeJd 15 MU 15.3.42; 807 Sqn Eagle, 2 S79 shot down, shared BP819, own ale damaged in combat with CR42s. then hit by lire from ",,~SII~r, ditched 37°45'N 7"30'W, CllI Z 1105 14.6.42 (1.l PR Hall killed &. SIL LO Urry picked up OK)

Unquote

 

it does not mentioned the 809 squadron nor the HMS VIctorious. 

 

Any comments will be much appreciate

 

Cheers

Santiago

 

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A curiosity, maybe: X8812:6F and DR641:6B are both presented as colour side views in Aircraft Profile No. 254 on Fairey Fulmar Mks I & II, by David Brown.

Publication date: 1973, those profiles have been around for fifty years.

X8812 is reported as '6F' in Sturtivant, whereas DR641 was lost much earlier than Operation Torch. The serial is reported together with another one, BP819, lending further credibility.

We do not know what happened at the time the original profile of '6B' was drawn. For instance, the serial might have been misread in some reference photo or log.

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On 09/01/2023 at 03:57, diamant said:

Most of the kits came with the option of the Mk II DR641 6B of the 809 Squadron with the Operation Torch markings.

 

Looking at book Fleet Air Arm 1939-1945 of Ray Sturtivan (Air Britain Publication) this is what it says about the DR641

 

Quote

DR641 DeJd 15 MU 15.3.42; 807 Sqn Eagle, 2 S79 shot down, shared BP819, own ale damaged in combat with CR42s. then hit by lire from ",,~SII~r, ditched 37°45'N 7"30'W, CllI Z 1105 14.6.42 (1.l PR Hall killed &. SIL LO Urry picked up OK)

Unquote

 

it does not mentioned the 809 squadron nor the HMS VIctorious. 

 

Any comments will be much appreciate

 

Cheers

Santiago

 

 

...and we still don't in the master version ready for publication in the vastly improved and updated second edition due out as soon as I can get it finished!

 

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9 hours ago, Lee Howard said:

 

...and we still don't in the master version ready for publication in the vastly improved and updated second edition due out as soon as I can get it finished!

 

Hi Lee

 

Woow I am speachless. I wish It could be finished before we do the Fulmar series.

 

Cheers

Santiago

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  • 2 months later...

Hi,

 

It is time to do these models and I would like to make a last call for help.

 

1) Regarding Operation Pedestal, I decided to represent the one with appears in this photo because it is conclusive regarding the yellow tail. 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205148954

 

As per @ClaudioN comments, it was an Mk II

second photo (IWM A 15960): Sea Hurricane (unidentified), Sea Hurricane '7U', Fulmar II 'P';

 

I will not try to identify the serial number but I have the following doubts:

- Should it carry the "6P" code letter on the fuselage? If so, was it in sky colour?

- What was the colour of the undersurfaces? Was it sky?

- In your opinion, which was the colour of the spinner?

 

@Graham Boak@Lee Howard@iang Any comments will be most welcome.

 

Kind regards

Santiago

 

 

 

 

 

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I'd go with Sky underside and spinner. 

I don't know whether it carried 6P or not: the FAA fighter squadrons tended to be individual (not to say idiosyncratic) about carrying codes or not.  However, as said above, X8812 was 6K in 809 Sq - but are those aircraft 809 or 884?  

You can guarantee that all fighters on Pedestal had the yellow fin.

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On 1/9/2023 at 3:57 AM, diamant said:

Looking at book Fleet Air Arm 1939-1945 of Ray Sturtivan (Air Britain Publication) this is what it says about the DR641

 

Quote

DR641 DeJd 15 MU 15.3.42; 807 Sqn Eagle, 2 S79 shot down, shared BP819, own ale damaged in combat with CR42s. then hit by lire from ",,~SII~r, ditched 37°45'N 7"30'W, CllI Z 1105 14.6.42 (1.l PR Hall killed &. SIL LO Urry picked up OK)

Unquote

 

Bit late to the party but corrected version of Sturtivant entry (not that it affects the debate):

 

DR641 DeJd 15 MU 15.3.42; 807 Sqn Eagle, 2 S79 shot down, shared BP819, own a/c damaged in combat with CR42s. then hit by lire from Wrestler, ditched 37°45'N 7"30'W, Cat Z 1105 14.6.42 (Lt PR Hall killed &. S/L LD Urry picked up OK)

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On 3/26/2023 at 12:41 PM, Graham Boak said:

I'd go with Sky underside and spinner. 

I don't know whether it carried 6P or not: the FAA fighter squadrons tended to be individual (not to say idiosyncratic) about carrying codes or not.  However, as said above, X8812 was 6K in 809 Sq - but are those aircraft 809 or 884?  

You can guarantee that all fighters on Pedestal had the yellow fin.

Hi Graham

 

Thank you very much for your reply.  I will follow your piece of advice.

 

Thank Seahawk your post.

 

I will post some photos of our progress soon.

 

Cheers

Santiago

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Hi

 

I have one more question. Were the code letters on the Operation Pedestal and Operation Torch painted in white or Sky? I mean "6 (letter)"

 

Thank you very much

 

Santiago

 

 

 

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