Tamiya M10 'Achilles' Tracks Question

[dogload]

Hi and apologies if this is another one of those questions, but Sherman family track types always do my head in a bit! 😧

 

My son bought me the recent Tamiya M10 17-pounder for xmas, forcing me to dust off my modelling chops once more and try and remember where I stored all the trivia in my overly-cluttered 'mind palace'. And this inevitably leads me to the point of my post - are the tracks supplied in the kit correct for an M10 17-pounder? Most of the photos seem to show them with steel chevron track, and whilst I'm a long way short of having the skills to be a proper 'rivet counter', I like to be as accurate as possible.

 

I haven't decided on whether to build it as a NWE or Italian theatre vehicle yet - would the track type dictate which of those options I can choose? I have some AFV T-62 trcks in my stash but I believe that these were for M4A4 (I probably got them for the Firefly VC I have had sitting on a shelf for the last 15 years or so!🙄). Happy to use the kit ones though if they are appropriate etc., etc!

 

I appreciate that there is plenty of reference material out there (I have plenty myself!) but feeling a bit 'post-xmas lethargy' thought I'd try you guys first and save some brain legwork 😁

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Bullbasket]

I'm assuming that the Tamiya kit contains T51 rubber block. That would appear to be the most common type use on the Achilles. There are photos on line of M10s with those tracks and grousers. There are several other types pictured online such as T54E1 and T49, It's a case of decide which vehicle that you want to build, and go with whatever a google search throws up, but I'd go with the T51 tracks.

HTHs.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

The track type does not dictate the theatre.  They are production-date related.  By the time the M10 entered production the US could not make natural rubber-block tank tracks because of a shortage of rubber after Japan occupied Malaya.  Production before spring '44 would have used one of the steel track types: T49 or T52E1/E2.  From Spring '44 synthetic rubber track was on the menu and the T48 and T51 types began to appear and become common.  Steel types were still being used.  The UK preferred steel types and the US preferred rubber, but allocation was not made solely on that basis.  The rubber types wore out quickly and the T51 gave notably poor traction on anything other than paved surfaces.  In theatre they would be replaced with whatever was available.

 

Long answer short, the T51 track provided is appropriate for an M10 with the later pattern turret configuration anywhere.

[dogload]

21 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

I'm assuming that the Tamiya kit contains T51 rubber block. That would appear to be the most common type use on the Achilles. There are photos on line of M10s with those tracks and grousers. There are several other types pictured online such as T54E1 and T49, It's a case of decide which vehicle that you want to build, and go with whatever a google search throws up, but I'd go with the T51 tracks.

HTHs.

 

John.

Thank you John - yes the rubber blocks are the supplied ones. I shall feel less intimidated by the prospect of researching now, knowing that

 

3 hours ago, Kingsman said:

The track type does not dictate the theatre.  They are production-date related.  By the time the M10 entered production the US could not make natural rubber-block tank tracks because of a shortage of rubber after Japan occupied Malaya.  Production before spring '44 would have used one of the steel track types: T49 or T52E1/E2.  From Spring '44 synthetic rubber track was on the menu and the T48 and T51 types began to appear and become common.  Steel types were still being used.  The UK preferred steel types and the US preferred rubber, but allocation was not made solely on that basis.  The rubber types wore out quickly and the T51 gave notably poor traction on anything other than paved surfaces.  In theatre they would be replaced with whatever was available.

 

Long answer short, the T51 track provided is appropriate for an M10 with the later pattern turret configuration anywhere.

I knew about the rubber shortage, but wasn't sure whether the block type were very common on British Shermans and variants at that stage of the war. I was aware of our preference for the steel tracks so sort-of assumed (I know - never assume anything to do with Shermans!) that there was a choice being made in what tracks to fit. So essentially, the kit T51s are good to go, unless the vehicle I fancy basing my model on is wearing something different... it's all so clear now! 🤣

Thank you for the info ,

[Bullbasket]

2 minutes ago, dogload said:

Thank you John - yes the rubber blocks are the supplied ones. I shall feel less intimidated by the prospect of researching now, knowing that

 

I knew about the rubber shortage, but wasn't sure whether the block type were very common on British Shermans and variants at that stage of the war. I was aware of our preference for the steel tracks so sort-of assumed (I know - never assume anything to do with Shermans!) that there was a choice being made in what tracks to fit. So essentially, the kit T51s are good to go, unless the vehicle I fancy basing my model on is wearing something different... it's all so clear now! 🤣

Thank you for the info ,

One thing that I noticed. I have the AFV Club kit of the Wolverine (M10 in British use) and the tracks which they have included in the kit are T51 rubber block with grousers attached. So if you wanted to model an M10 with that set up, there's a chance that AFV may do those tracks as an after item.

 

John.

[dogload]

3 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

One thing that I noticed. I have the AFV Club kit of the Wolverine (M10 in British use) and the tracks which they have included in the kit are T51 rubber block with grousers attached. So if you wanted to model an M10 with that set up, there's a chance that AFV may do those tracks as an after item.

 

John.

Thanks John. I actually have an AFV Club Achilles in my stash, but can't recall what tracks it has. I'll have to go through some pictures first to find a suitable subject.

[Kingsman]

No disrespect, John but are you sure about that?  The AFV Club Achilles has T48 rubber chevron tracks.  Their other M10s have T49s or T51s.  And do we mean grousers or extended end connectors?

 

The kit itself comes with a full rack of grousers on each hull side.  Are these separate parts, or parts that could be separated, which could be fitted to the tracks?  On any kind of slippery going the grousers would be very necessary on T51 tracks.  TMD used to offer resin grousers but of course they have just closed down.  AFAIK they were the only after-market offering.

 

The M10 could only use extended end connectors by cutting away the front fenders to the usual Sherman triangular shape and cutting out a piece of the lower rear hull sides.  You do occasionally see that done but it wasn't exactly commonplace.  In the lower photo the entire lower hull side has been cut off to about half depth to completely clear the end connectors.

 

 

[Bullbasket]

28 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

No disrespect, John but are you sure about that? 

None taken Peter. But we may be talking about two different kits. Mine isn't an Achilles. It's an M10 Wolverine. I had a look at the kit earlier today as I wasn't sure. I'll check again, but I'm 90% certain that the tracks are T51's with grousers moulded on, not end connectors. Give me a while and I'll take a photo of the tracks. I'm moving very slowly today. I recently shifted a tonne of logs by hand and the arthritis in my hands and the sciatica are giving me hell at the moment, so everything done slowly.

 

John.

[Bullbasket]

OK Mia culpa!! That's what happens when you look at something with the wrong glasses on. They're actually T49's. When I went back and looked at them, I still thought that they were grousers. It wasn't until I looked at the photo that I could see them properly. SWMBO says that I shouldn't be allowed out on my own!!

[Kingsman]

You have my sympathies with the logs, eyesight and sciatica!  I suffer with the latter from time to time and my memory has more holes than a block of Emmental cheese, as many posts will attest.......  At least logs aren't subject to the same price hikes as gas and lecky......... are they?

[Bullbasket]

14 hours ago, Kingsman said:

At least logs aren't subject to the same price hikes as gas and lecky......... are they?

Oh yes!!. Not like some items, mind you, but they have increased in price. Still, all stacked now and should last us the winter, providing we don't get something akin to what they've had on the other side of the pond.

 

John.

[dogload]

Thanks for all the info and advice chaps, it's really helpful and I now feel just as perplexed! 😜

I checked out my AFV Club 'Achilles' and it is indeed rubber blocks but then remembered the Academy Achilles sitting unopened, and it has steel chevrons but in that awful rather stiff and not-so-flexible vinyl. Still, it's an option as I have found very few pics so far of the actual vehicles in action with the T51s. 

I also have a boxful of Dragon individual links from their old M4A1 kits, but they are definitely a last resort and possibly the wrong type anyway. 

 

May I ask where in France you are John? My in-laws are French and live in Charente near Angouleme and even with that insane heatwave this year after 3 weeks at their place I just didn't fancy the prospect of coming back to UK PLC. Colour me very envious! 

[Bullbasket]

1 hour ago, dogload said:

May I ask where in France you are John? My in-laws are French and live in Charente near Angouleme

Not far away. Dept.79, Deux Sevres in a small village somewhere between Lezay in 79 and Couhe in 86.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

I have some sets of Bronco and Masterclub links in my surplus pile plus a set of Modelkasten T49s.  I can't let them go for free, though.  PM me if these are of interest.

 

I have Bronco T48, T49 (1 set unboxed and another off the sprues), T51, T54 E1 and E2, T74.  Masterclub T48, T49, T54E2, T74.  T74 was essentially a post-war version of T54E1 with rubber backing and simplified front face.

 

STOP PRESS.

I also have some Friul T49 and T54E1.  And some Meng T48 with EECs.  Plus some MiniArt T41 which are almost indistinguishable from T51 in scale.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Kingsman
addition

[dogload]

19 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Not far away. Dept.79, Deux Sevres in a small village somewhere between Lezay in 79 and Couhe in 86.

 

John.

Wow, what a small world! We were in Lezay this year visiting my friend's mum. It's a lovely area. Not jealous at all! 🙄😉

[dogload]

19 hours ago, Kingsman said:

I have some sets of Bronco and Masterclub links in my surplus pile plus a set of Modelkasten T49s.  I can't let them go for free, though.  PM me if these are of interest.

 

I have Bronco T48, T49 (1 set unboxed and another off the sprues), T51, T54 E1 and E2, T74.  Masterclub T48, T49, T54E2, T74.  T74 was essentially a post-war version of T54E1 with rubber backing and simplified front face.

 

STOP PRESS.

I also have some Friul T49 and T54E1.  And some Meng T48 with EECs.  Plus some MiniArt T41 which are almost indistinguishable from T51 in scale.

Thank you - I'll mull that over.

TBH, individual links give me a sense of unease having suffered at the hands of Dragon's M4A1 and Firefly sets! 😧

[Bullbasket]

1 hour ago, dogload said:

TBH, individual links give me a sense of unease having suffered at the hands of Dragon's M4A1 and Firefly sets!

You've obviously never tried Panda Plastics over the other side of the pond. They literally just click together. Only draw back is that the postage is as much as the cost of the tracks.

 

John.

[dogload]

I'd never heard of Panda Plastics till you mentioned them! I'm frequently out of touch with matters and materiel-modelling, as I drop in and out of 'the loop' from time to time

 

At first inspection I see what you mean though. Looks like tracks cost more than the kits 😧

[Bullbasket]

1 hour ago, dogload said:

At first inspection I see what you mean though. Looks like tracks cost more than the kits

They certainly do when you factor in P&P. It seems that the US post office has really increased it's prices. It's a shame because IMO, they are the best and easiest to assemble.

 

John.

[magman2]

The Sherman family will always have add-ons or strange things that didn’t look normal, and all you can say is never say never.

Tracks. I have two examples of not what you would expect to see on these vehicles. One is a Sherman the other is a Achilles. The Sherman has one track backwards and the Achilles has the tracks on backwards on both sides. I am sure if you modelled either Tank a few people have a lot to say.

Net Photo IWM

Net Photo IWM

[dogload]

Hi again and apologies for not responding earlier. Life and stuff sort of got in the way!

 

I came across this image of an Achilles of 93rd Anti-Tank Regiment crossing the River Savio in October 1944. Obviously it's a well-known image as it turns out that one of the decal options included in the kit is for this vehicle!

 

 

Anyway, I decided for the sake of my wallet and to make life easier to model this one. Which leads me to another question! Are those boxes on the front fenders 25pdr ammo boxes? And would they be painted SCC15 or that brown colour (SCC2?)

Also, it seems to have another ammo box on the glacis where the spare blocks should be. I sort of recognise it, but what am I actually looking at?

[Graham Boak]

A bit early for SCC15, especially in Italy. A bit late for Light Mud. As it is an Achilles, it probably isn't still in OD (though it might).  So the likeliest appears to be SCC2.

[IanC]

4 hours ago, dogload said:

Hi again and apologies for not responding earlier. Life and stuff sort of got in the way!

 

I came across this image of an Achilles of 93rd Anti-Tank Regiment crossing the River Savio in October 1944. Obviously it's a well-known image as it turns out that one of the decal options included in the kit is for this vehicle!

 

 

Anyway, I decided for the sake of my wallet and to make life easier to model this one. Which leads me to another question! Are those boxes on the front fenders 25pdr ammo boxes? And would they be painted SCC15 or that brown colour (SCC2?)

Also, it seems to have another ammo box on the glacis where the spare blocks should be. I sort of recognise it, but what am I actually looking at?

 

I believe those are C.224 ammo boxes on the mudguards. Used for various munitions, and very common. SCC.2 would be a safe choice of colour. 

 

Possibly C.238 boxes on the glacis.

[zigster]

+1 for SCC2, and that would make an interesting change to those "greens" around them 🙂

z

 

[Bullbasket]

Sorry to be at odds with everyone else, but why would we repaint those M10's and Wolverines when we took delivery of them, when they were already in an acceptable colour? It doesn't make sense. It's like the controversy over whether Centaurs were repainted SCC15 before D Day, when it was expected that they would only be used for the first few days. Fireflys were only repainted SCC15 after being converted. 

B&W photos of the time are very misleading, and can give the impression of a much lighter colour. IMO, what appears to be SCC2 in B&W photos, is actually OD which may be faded. After all, OD is a shade of brown, not green. 

I'm happy to be proved wrong if someone can provide evidence that M10's were repainted in SCC2.

 

John.