Sea Gladiator; Henry Folland's (2nd) last fighter for Gloster

[Maginot]

Well, off we go. I've had a soft spot for the Sea Gladiator since my Dad told me the story of Faith, Hope and Charity, and the part taken by the aircraft in the defence of Malta. Some decades ago, I spent a memorable 10 days in Malta which included a visit to N5520 Faith resting in the bowels of Fort St Elmo. I'm afraid I must confess that I gave her a tender kiss on the cowling and shed a tear. Fortunately, there were no witnesses.

 

 

The kit comes with decals for N5519, another of the Malta Sea Gladiators, but it didn't survive the war, being destroyed in an air raid on 4 February 1941. This was Hope, coincidentally the name of my favourite Aunt. Either N5519 or N5520 would be most satisfying to model due to these connections.

 

I'd like to finish the aircraft in prewar silver dope. AIMS Models offers a decal set which includes markings for N5519 in this style, serving aboard the ill fated HMS Glorious as war clouds gathered in June 1939. I wonder if N5520 was similarly aboard HMS Glorious or another carrier?

 

 

According to an article published on The Scarf & Goggles Social Club website (credible source?); " ... in March 1940 ... 18 Gloster Sea Gladiators, believed to have consecutive serial numbers N5518 – N5535, were unloaded on the Island (Malta) in packing cases, bound for the carrier HMS Glorious." As HMS Glorious was sunk on 8 June, these aircraft were assigned to other stations; HMS Eagle, Egypt and Malta.

 

The crated airframes raise a question or two. According to Wikipedia; "Of the 98 aircraft built as, or converted to, Sea Gladiators, 54 were still in service by the outbreak of the Second World War." So none of the airframes in crates were fresh from the manufacturer. But were they sourced from storage? Were they repaired or refurbished airframes? Had some/all already served aboard aircraft carriers?

 

And is it Sea Gladiator Mk.II or simply Sea Gladiator?

 

All help, advice and constructive crits most welcome. May all our builds be 'on the top line'.

[stevej60]

32 minutes ago, Maginot said:

All help, advice and constructive crits most welcome. May all our builds be 'on the top line'.

This looks a great project I was bought their 1/32 Yak 3 for Christmas so can vouch for the quality they are achieving with their molds these days.

[Maginot]

Located and ordered AIMS decals today through the preferred local supplier. Last set in stock and on special! Off to a flying start 🤓

 

Circled: Sea Gladiator N5519, 802 Naval Air Squadron, HMS Glorious, June 1939.

 

   

 

[TonyOD]

That is very pretty!

[PeterB]

On 12/27/2022 at 12:06 PM, Maginot said:

 

 

I'd like to finish the aircraft in prewar silver dope. AIMS Models offers a decal set which includes markings for N5519 in this style, serving aboard the ill fated HMS Glorious as war clouds gathered in June 1939. I wonder if N5520 was similarly aboard HMS Glorious or another carrier?

 

 

According to an article published on The Scarf & Goggles Social Club website (credible source?); " ... in March 1940 ... 18 Gloster Sea Gladiators, believed to have consecutive serial numbers N5518 – N5535, were unloaded on the Island (Malta) in packing cases, bound for the carrier HMS Glorious." As HMS Glorious was sunk on 8 June, these aircraft were assigned to other stations; HMS Eagle, Egypt and Malta.

 

The crated airframes raise a question or two. According to Wikipedia; "Of the 98 aircraft built as, or converted to, Sea Gladiators, 54 were still in service by the outbreak of the Second World War." So none of the airframes in crates were fresh from the manufacturer. But were they sourced from storage? Were they repaired or refurbished airframes? Had some/all already served aboard aircraft carriers?

 

And is it Sea Gladiator Mk.II or simply Sea Gladiator?

 

All help, advice and constructive crits most welcome. May all our builds be 'on the top line'.

Sent you a PM that might be helpful. For the record, my sources say that the first batch of 38 Sea Gladiators (N2265-N2302) were conversions of the first 38 Gladiator Mk II  models taken straight off the production line and delivered from December 1938 onwards as Sea Gladiator (Interim) - they had strengthened longerons, an arrestor hook and a ASI calibrated in knots. The main production batch of 60 "proper" Sea Gladiators was ordered in June 1938 - based on the Mk II design as modified above,  these also had catapult spools, emergency dingy stowage, and the internal collector boxes for spent shell cases were removed and chutes provided to jettison the cases and links clear of the dinghy. The 3 blade Fairey metal fixed pitch prop was standard on all Sea Gladiators though some on Malta later had variable pitch props and sometimes engines from Blenheims fitted. Sea Gladiators first embarked on Courageous, followed by Glorious in around March 1939 and it looks like all of the Glads sent to Malta were from the batch of 60 "proper" Sea Gladiators N5500-49 and N5565-74 and in all probability given the dates (shipped to Malta in mid April 1939), they were brand new, being crated up after assembly and testing but I am sure somebody will tell me if I am wrong!😄

 

Sources

"Gloster Aircraft" - Putnams, Squadron Signal Aircraft in Action and Warpaint - "Gladiator", "Hurricanes over Malta" - Grubb Street.

The latter book gives details of the Gladiator deployment and use as an introduction and also details of their combat during the period they were being gradually replaced by Hurricanes and later Spitfires.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited December 28, 2022 by PeterB

[Maginot]

Thanks @PeterB. That's brilliant! This makes for fabulous reading. You've answered most of my questions and fed my situational awareness of the period in which this modelling project is set. Great insight into the peculiarities of Fleet Air Arm supply logistics, too. Thanks ship-loads for your help, Pete.

 

"The assembled fighters were subsequently fitted with armour plate behind the pilot's seat and with variable pitch, three-bladed propellers." Interesting. This to replace the fixed-pitch three-bladed propeller. So the one I'll be modelling will have the fixed-pitch three-bladed prop. By the look, ICM have reproduced the fixed-pitch three blader in the kit. Not so good if you want to model N5519 in Fighter Flight, Hal Far guise as per out-of-the-box mode.

 

Note: ICM provide a decal for the black flight leader's fin marking for N5519 as used when stationed aboard HMS Glorious, but not the other markings nor a paint guide to the pre-war version.

 

From reading Pete's extract and other sources, I conclude that the moniker Sea Gladiator Mk.II is not of the period. As I understand it, the Sea Gladiator was derived from the Gladiator Mk.II; 38 were modified from land-based airframes and 60 built as navalised versions, but all were called simply Sea Gladiator.

 

Ordered a set of cockpit bling today, as the enabling pension payment trickled into the coffers. This will be my first time using glam additions 🤓 like these, cos I follow @Bertie McBoatface's principle of: just what can you see from a sensible viewing distance? After all, I'll likely submit soft-focus completion images taken from conservative viewing angles and distances in subdued light. This approach worked wonders for David Bailey, who used to smear Vaseline on his lenses to achieve those blemishless, intimate portraits in Vanity Fair. And I'm not catering for some exhibition judge with clipboard and fiber-optic camera ready to probe and score the model's most private parts. However, I'll give it a go this time just to try it out. 

 

 

I picked up the AIMS decals today, which look great but are unfortunately slightly damaged due to slack packaging. I couldn't be bothered waiting for another set from who knows where (last in stock) and will make do. Interesting to note a noticeably different shade of insignia blue between the ICM and AIMS roundels; the former very dark blue, the latter a rich medium blue. Did these tints change after the outbreak of war? Sad to report the otherwise helpful and informed young fellow behind the counter looked blankly at me when I asked; "Have my Gladiator transfers arrived from the warehouse?"

[Bertie McBoatface]

2 minutes ago, Maginot said:

... ready to probe and score the model's most private parts. However, I'll give it a go this time. 

 

I had a colonography earlier this year. Not the sort of thing I'd do regularly but sometimes it's good to stretch yourself and see what's possible. 

[Maginot]

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it's good to stretch yourself and see what's possible

 

When I had mine some years ago, I certainly didn't stretch myself during the procedure and it was up the the surgeon to see what was possible, impossible and implausible 🤓

[PeterB]

As to AIMS stuff, I read a few months ago that John Mcilmurray who made them sadly has major problems with the bones in his hands and it seems unlikely that he will be able to continue as he must be in considerable pain. So unless he sells/has sold the business on there may well be no more of his excellent products once existing stocks run out.

 

Pete

[Maginot]

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John McIlmurray who made them (AIMS Models) sadly has major problems with the bones in his hands and it seems unlikely that he will be able to continue

That's bad news. Poor John. Thoughts his way. Having experienced a serious health setback, I can attest that this ageing business manifests indiscriminately and ain't no fun. Thoughts his way and profound thanks to him for providing such appealing and high quality accessories. I also have his excellent Bf 109G-4/R3 aufklärer (reconnaissance) conversion set.

 

And thanks very much indeed Pete for the invaluable information you have gone to such trouble to contribute to this project, both here in the thread and in my messages.

[Graham Boak]

A couple of points;  The medium blue will be the prewar Blue, which apparently Gloster kept using even in Hurricane days. The darker blue will be the wartime Blue, sometimes called Dark Blue or Roundel Blue, which was introduced at the same time as camouflage.

 

There were a lot of experimenting with different props for the Sea Gladiator, before settling on the Fairey 3-blade.  However it seems that the Navy also bought a batch of the wooden 2-blade, as it is reported that some of the pilots thought that this gave better acceleration, and they can be seen operating off Eagle in the Med with this prop.  It is often said that the difference between the RAF Gladiator Mk.I and Mk.II was the propeller, which is true as far as it goes, so this may be where the confusion over Sea Gladiator marks comes from.  However I think the Mk.II had a different Mercury than the Mk.I, and it seems that the later one would be standard on the Sea Gladiator.   Only (some of?) the Malta Glads had variable pitch props from Blenheims.  The actuation for the pitch change has to come down the prop shaft, so I don't think you could put it in without changing the engine too.

 

Malta was a base for the Navy, so a supply of stores was kept there - aircraft counting as stores in this context.  Glorious raided this stock on at least one occasion, I think leaving some Glads needing attention and picking up others.  The RAF borrowed from the stock left.

 

Methinks the F.5/34 monoplane fighter was Folland's last fighter design for Gloster.  The SS.37 was flying in 1934, and the production specification for the Gladiator was F.10/34.  Picky picky.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Graham Boak
More information

[Maginot]

Thanks very much, Mr Boak. Heartfelt appreciation from a once fellow Lancastrian (born Nelson)... sadly lapsed as I now am 🤓

 

Very interesting what you write about the possible use of wooden props on Sea Gladiators. The trick would be to find a pic or two of Sea Gladiators aboard HMS Glorious equipped with such. Pictorial evidence might also help me sort out 802's squadron code for N5520. N5519 was G6A; could N5520 be G6B?

 

Picky picky my foot! How could I forget the elegant F.5/34 monoplane fighter so quickly? Oh right! It's a forgotten aircraft. No excuse! I watched this excellent video not so long ago:

 

 

Time to grit my teeth and review another excellent albeit sickening video of HMS Glorious to see if I can spy some footage of Sea Gladiators:

 

[Graham Boak]

Ah.  For Glorious add Eagle?  The Sea Gladiators went out for use by the Med. Fleet, which at the time was indeed Glorious.  However, the photo I've seen (and context) involve Keigthly-Peach and Eagle.

 

I've only been in Lancashire for 48 years, I'm afraid, so only count as an expatriate Geordie.  Pit yacker, really.

 

 

 

 

[Maginot]

I'm tempted to use the two-bladed wooden prop on this rendering. Speculative as it is, it would reference possible individual pilot preferences, like that you cite, and acknowledge the variety of experiments and field modifications applied to machinery in service.

[Graham Boak]

OK.  I think I'd keep that option for an Eagle one, but...

 

N5520 went to 802 at the same time, but stayed slightly longer.  However N5539 is said to be with 802 as from the month N5520 (and others) left, and is recorded as GB - I suspect 6B but it may not have been the first.  Source Sturtivant & Burrow, FAA Aircraft 1939 to 1945, Air Britain.  There is a new edition expected soon(ish).  

[Maginot]

Reviewing the above video, at 6:29 there are 6 Gladiators warming up and then one taking off. The props look to be 3-bladed. For comparison, at 11:00 there is a Fairey Seal (?) landing aboard, showing the distinctive appearance of a whirring 2-bladed prop from a distance. I can't tell if the footage is of HMS Glorious or HMS Courageous. 

 

Thanks for info on N5520 @Graham Boak. And thanks for the Sturtivant & Burrow reference, which is bringing a premium price on the 2nd hand market 😮

 

I wonder if a shortage of spare 3-bladed props after a spate of landing incidents had anything to do with the 2-bladed being tried initially?

 

Well, fireworks have frightened animals everywhere and something like 400,000 people gathered to watch in Melbourne's CBD. We're four hours into 2023 on this side of the planet. Hippy New Year to you all and happy modelling year ahead.

[PeterB]

On 12/29/2022 at 8:26 AM, Maginot said:

Thanks @PeterB. That's brilliant! This makes for fabulous reading. You've answered most of my questions and fed my situational awareness of the period in which this modelling project is set. Great insight into the peculiarities of Fleet Air Arm supply logistics, too. Thanks ship-loads for your help, Pete.

 

"The assembled fighters were subsequently fitted with armour plate behind the pilot's seat and with variable pitch, three-bladed propellers." Interesting.

 

 

 

 

I should perhaps point out that the above quote comes from an extract I sent Maginot and may have referred to just 4 planes - N5519, N5520, N5524,and N 5531 when they were un-crated and assembled, so maybe they were the only ones fitted with both props and presumably slightly more powerful Mercury engines from Blenheims - I doubt there were many such conversions but at least some did have one of the two pitch settings on the 3 bladed variable pitch variable props altered to improve the rate of climb, coupled with higher octane petrol it seems - apparently they had a small supply and the book mentions "distilling" some more though that sounds a bit risky. Similar changes were made to a few Hurricanes as well, but HQ found out and told Malta to cease modifications and return them to standard, though eventually relented, or so it says in the book "Hurricanes over Malta" by Cull and Galea. Another mod was for fitting an extra pair of 0.303 MG in the upper wings though I have seen no record of it being used and I doubt the extra weight would help performance.

 

Pete

Edited December 31, 2022 by PeterB

[Graham Boak]

The fitting for extra mgs under the upper wing was standard on all Sea Gladiators, but the only mentioned use is on one of the Malta Fighter Flight aircraft, possibly "Charity" but let's not go to deeply into that, which was lost almost immediately.    Not in aerial combat, as you might reasonably expect!  I recall a drawing in Eagle comic showing them above the wings and inboard, so looking horrendous.  This is not suggested as a true fit.  There is reference to "Charity" being shot down, but whether this was a reference to the same aircraft I doubt.  The reference I saw was to a Stuka killer, which sounds journalese, but means the loss in performance wouldn't have been critical.  I think there is another reference (in Shores/Cull but maybe in  Cull/Galea's Gladiators over Malta) about an RAF officer seeing the six-gun Gladiator in a hangar at a fairly late stage, which might suggest "Hope" if you want to play games, but I'd have to do some digging to confirm that.  I don't think that the extra guns appear in any of the photos, including the line-up of the three after transfer back to the FAA, with the low demarcation camouflage.  It might be interesting to hold a magnifying glass to the underside of the wings in that photo, but I'm not holding my breath. 

 

I thought that they got six out, but maybe the other two were never assembled.

 

It may be relevant to add that Barnham records flying his Spitfire without the canopy, for better visibility, but was told to put it back on.   This annoyed him, but from reading his book it does seem that he was getting combat-weary by then and sensitive to slights.

[PeterB]

20 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 

 

I thought that they got six out, but maybe the other two were never assembled.

 

 

The book says that after those 4 were assembled there were still 3 left in crates. Whether they were assembled later or just used for spares I don't know. As this is not going to be a "Malta" build I think we had better let Maginot get on without further distractions!

 

Pete

Edited January 1, 2023 by PeterB

[iang]

On 29/12/2022 at 15:00, Maginot said:

 

 

Very interesting what you write about the possible use of wooden props on Sea Gladiators. The trick would be to find a pic or two of Sea Gladiators aboard HMS Glorious equipped with such. Pictorial evidence might also help me sort out 802's squadron code for N5520. N5519 was G6A; could N5520 be G6B?

 

According to Admiralty documents, for operations off Norway in 1940 Glorious embarked:

April 22 -27,  and April 30-May 3,  8 Sea Gladiators with 802 Squadron and 3 Sea Gladiators and 6 Sea Gladiator interim with 804 Squadron

April 30-May 3,  8 Sea Gladiators with 802 Squadron and 3 Sea Gladiators and 6 Sea Gladiator interim with 804 Squadron

May 4- May 23, 6 Sea Gladiators 802 Squadron

May 24 -May 30, 6 Sea Gladiators 802 Squadron

May 31- June 8,  6 Sea Gladiators 802 Squadron (all lost with the ship)

 

804 Squadron was transferred to Furious

May 14-May 23  2 Sea Gladiators, 4 Sea Gladiator interim ( 2 Sea Gladiator and 1 Sea Gladiator interim left at Cambelton). 

 

I know the serials for most of these, but the codes for 802 Squadron are not documented. On the other had, the 804 Squadron Diary survives and this provides codes for the early Norway sorties on Glorious.  I think Lt.Cdr. J. C. Cockburn's (C/O 804 Squadron) Sea Gladiator interim on Glorious had a distinctive black and white cowling and a 2 -bladed prop. 804 Squadron on Furious was also quite well photographed. There are a couple of photos in my book on Fleet Air Arm Camouflage and Markings of 804 Squadron while on Furious. 

 

 

[Maginot]

Key Thunderbirds opening sequence music; read in mid-Atlantic accent:

 

Five...

Four...

Three...

Two...

One...

Salty Sea Dogs are...

 

Wait for it!

 

 

[TonyOD]

Just been catching up on this thread. Involved, innit! 😁

[Maginot]

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Just been catching up on this thread. Involved, innit!

 

All part of the Britmodeller magic! I love this kinda stuff. It enriches the modelling experience and helps answer those unanswered questions (of which I always have tons).

[Bertie McBoatface]

Fascinating tail so far Maginot. When will we see the dog? Will you be starting the build soon?

[Maginot]

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When will we see the dog?

 

A modest start is made... with the dog and friends for Bertie.

 

First impressions:

• nice workable plastic, lovely moulding, little flash
• couple of sinkholes to watch out for in cockpit components, but they should be hidden when assembly complete
• suggest using instructions as a guide to work out your own order of assembly.
• suggest fitting cockpit side framing to both fuselage halves and taping fuselage halves together to use side frames as jig to accurately assemble transverse cockpit frames, panels and floor
• at least one tiny locating pin on a fuselage half is large enough to prevent the halves coming together without a gap
• decent but not perfect parts fit requires fettling and careful assembly, certainly of cockpit components and fuselage halves
• dry fitting main components essential.

And I wonder how long the radio mast on the tail fin will last before I knock it off (hangar rash 🤓)?

 

It's 36°C in the shade climbing to a forecast 39°C. So staying under cover next to a whirring fan, listening to cool jazz while doing a bit of modelling is the G.O. until I head out to do some frogging at sunset (quest for the emblematic Growler - Growling Grass Frog Litoria raniformis), when hopefully a katabatic breeze will bring some cool relief tumbling down from the nearby foothills.