Criticism, okay or not?

[Steve Noble]

I wondered what people's thoughts are on offering constructive criticism on people's builds, is it okay to do this or not? I ask because I did such a thing myself yesterday, not on this forum but somewhere else and I did it in a very nice manner, not nasty or bluntly in any way. The person took great offence to the fact that I had criticised their work, told me to 'shove my suggestions up my own a*se' 

If I'd been really nasty or hard then I would understand this. Myself, if I post a build and someone comments with any kind of advice, words of encouragement etc for improving my builds then I'm all ears. 

I'd like to get people's opinions as to how they feel about this? 

[Graham Boak]

This is a common approach to any kind of direct or indirect judgement on modelling skills.  On this forum, it is certainly advisable not to offer such assistance unless specifically requested.  Some people even object to comments directed against the original kit itself, as if an aspersion against their taste in buying it, or an outrageous suggestion that the company producing the kit was anything other than perfect.  But then, such criticism only comes from nerdy no-hopers, rivet-counters who cannot possibly get any fun out of modelling, where modelling is defined as sticking any old bits of plastic together and painting it any old colours any old way, then posting and sitting back waiting for the applause to roll in.

 

Fortunately these are a minority in the community, but it is still safer to offer no advice on the forum.  You could try sending a PM with your suggestions, thus avoiding avoiding the trigger of public attention.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

It's a tricky one.

 

On the one hand, some people do want to get better and want feedback. Furthermore, lots of modellers just copy other modellers and this has resulted in a great many gross errors becoming widely believed to be correct. Nobody likes learning we've botched something but I always try to grow as a person. Feedback is a gift. If someone has taken their time to educate me I will always be grateful for that effort.

 

On the other hand, some people, for whatever reason, only wish to hear praise. They often claim to build purely for their own pleasure, but since they post photographs online for other people to see and comment on but react badly to anything which isn't "atta boy" type pats on the back then logically they do in fact want to receive praise. There's nothing inherently wrong with that but it can lead to volatile reactions to what was usually well intended.

 

Then there's others who are such white knights that they take offense on behalf of whoever made the model.

 

Usually I'll stay silent, making an exception a) if I already have some positive relationship with the person and it's not too late to fix it and I know they're the sort of person who wants to do well and doesn't have the temperament to react badly to constructive criticism (actually, I don't think I can think of any bad tempered fragile egos whom I make any effort to have a relationship with) or b) if someone else appears to be about to copy whatever is wrong with it.

[bootneck]

There can be a misunderstanding as to what contributors think is constructive criticism.  The well used phrases, such as "it never flew in those colours" "you have placed the aerial too far back" or "it's too long/short" etc., are actually negative criticisms; those comments should be followed up with some helpful recommendation to resolve what the contributor has identified as wrong.   I would consider a constructive criticism to be something like " the track rod in the kit is too thick; however, if you cut/leave that piece out and replace it with 0.5mm plastic rod, then that would really enhance the finish of your build".

 

cheers,
Mike

[ColonelKrypton]

20 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Feedback is a gift. If someone has taken their time to educate me I will always be grateful for that effort.

 

Jamie,

 

Well stated and as you noted later on, timing and knowing your audience is important. I think that the immediacy and broadness of "social media" has contributed to many being a bit less receptive to constructive criticism than they might otherwise be in a more personal setting - having something pointed out in front of a large unknown audience is very different from having your mate make a comment. 

 

cheers, Graham

 

[Tojo72]

Our society only wants participation awards for everyone,nobody fails,everyone passes.Often the first criticism young people encounter is a dissatisfied boss on their first job,then they run home and go into a shell,or need a safe space.

When I post a build,I am looking for some criticism,but given in a respectful way.Sometimes I can't use it on the current build,but it can be applied on the next kit.Sometimes it's about something beyond my ability,that's okay,maybe I try it,maybe not.

[Mike]

If criticism isn’t too hard to cope with for you, you’ve put this in the wrong place, so I shall move it to Chat, as it’s got nowt to do with vehicles.

 

in terms of this site, we have a two-tier system. The first and default tier is to be kind to people and generally offer supportive comments unless you know them well enough to be confident you’re not going to annoy them. There’s also an element of “that ship has already sailed” when you criticise a completed build. 
 

the second tier is optional, and comes into effect when the OP (original poster) makes a comment along the lines of “comments and criticisms welcome”.  Then you can give them constructive and polite criticism, and as long as it meets everyone’s definition of polite and respectful, if they get upset with you, that’s their problem. 
 

Just look out for that and then you’ll know. I prefer my c&c during my build if I’m honest. I was being helped by a member during my Mig-31 build some years ago, and it resulted in a better model. It also helped that it was done in a constructive and polite manner.  

[Watto]

I think that if you are going to put work onto a forum such as ours, as long as any comments are made respectfully and with justification, then we can all learn new techniques and tips to enable us all to improve our own results.

Like most aspects of life since the pandemic, a lot of people seem to find antagonistic behaviour an easy option and seem to go that way. 

I'm always grateful to people who show their work.

[Adam Poultney]

Criticism on my builds will always be welcome, with the understanding that I reserve the right to just ignore such comments when it suits me to. If all we get back from posting online are "great model", "nicely done", "I like such and such on this", etc, these positive comments would quickly become empty and meaningless. Adding comments like "it might be better to do X by doing Y instead" or even counting the rivets sometimes (again, more than welcome to on my builds if I make a compromise on accuracy it will usually be noted in the thread somewhere so if it's not I've probably missed it and want to know about it) makes those positive comments actually have substantial meaning, and helps us become better modelers. I know making the perfect model isn't for everyone, but I think a substantial proportion of us here strive to make better quality models. 

 

Even the flat negative criticism mentioned by @bootneck may be helpful for a modeller with my mindset. If there's a mistake I've missed, maybe a particular subject I'm modelling had a different probe on it (i almost missed this on a recent build despite having practically unlimited access to the very airframe that was the subject of my build) you don't always need find a positive comment to pair it with if there's not a relevant one to find. This of course cannot go for all modelers, but if your criticism is correct, please leave it on my builds, but it may be worth then backing up the comment with evidence to show it is correct.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Adam Poultney

[Ray S]

Hello all!

 

I have often found that criticism is a very useful thing, and have never (that I remember) being on the wrong end of anything out of order. There have been suggestions that such and such should have been so and so, and if I was in a position to correct it, I would, but if not, into the memory bank it went for next time, with appreciation, and I would thank the contributor.

 

One thing I have found though, is that when I have done a RFI post, sometimes I will get a PM to say that something was wrong, and that, in my opinion, is the best way to go.

 

If I am doing a kit that is particularly important to me, or is very involved (like in a Group Build), I will often state that I will say what I am going to do next, and invite any help if it sounds like I am going to inadvertently produce a boo-boo, in which case I think the response should be in the thread so other folks can learn. I know that in most of my builds I make at least one foul up! I have had lots of great advice that way, so a huge THANK YOU to all those who have helped.

 

Ray

[Bullbasket]

Ah, criticism. Don't you just love it.....or hate it! It all depends on who you are. I believe that there is something in the region of 15k members on this site, and the odds are that you are going to get someone who cannot take it, but quite often, can give it out. But in the six years or so that I've been a member of this site, I don't think that I can recall an instance of somebody being a bit heavy handed with their criticism of someone else's work, at least not in the AFV forums. Personally, I welcome constructive criticism, and not to be at odds with what has already been said, I don't want it in a PM. I want it in my WIP/RFI, so that everyone can see the mistake, and not repeat it themselves. If I mount a Browning .303 in the turret of a Cromwell, and it's pointed out to me that it should be a Bren, isn't it better for say, somebody new to the hobby to be pointed in the right direction?

There are sites though, where polite criticism went straight out of the window, long ago. Try posting on Armorama or Missing Lynx. There's a gentleman on there from the other side of the pond, who really knows his onions. When it comes to anything AFV related that served in the US Army or Marines, he knows what he's talking about. But he's a RRPITA!! Disagree with him, and he can turn really unpleasant, but sadly, for the moderators on there to do anything about him, he would have had to have killed someone or stormed the Capitol building

I can't comment about the other modelling threads, ie; aircraft, cars etc, as I only look at the RFI sections (there aren't enough hours in the day), but in AFV's we have quite a few  knowledgeable people who are willing to help out with people's builds, and in a useful way, constructively criticise. But probably, the one topic that does get a lot of discussion is colour. Don't even get me started!

 

John.

[noelh]

There  was a very amusing thread here where  people would write their  most negative criticisms. Such as 'You say this your first model in ten years? Well I  hope it's another ten years before we see a second'. Maybe someone would  restart that thread.

 

But when it comes to constructive criticism there has to be a balance between useful criticism and unnecessary comments about certain  aspects of a model. I rarely offer criticism but if I  see an obvious error I'll mention it hopefully to help the modeller and others  won't repeat the mistake. But  sometimes I've held back because I  just know it's just nit picking and most will simply irritate the modeller. 

It's easy to cross that line  though.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I have been helped out on several occasions by useful feedback - when I fitted the hatches to my model Panther tank and had them stuck upright, when infact they rotate up and round, I was able to replace them on the model without too much trouble.

 

In contrast to the chap who determinedly told me that my Hurricane was wrong to have anti-glare panels and posted pictures of a dozen of his builds to show me how wrong I was - until I replied with a photo of the actual RATG Hurricane I was making with anti-glare panels and he disappeared.

 

So really its a crap shoot, some advice is good, some is terrible. Some is well phrased, some is awkward. If you post online, you must expect the worst but mostly you find good quality feedback.

[AliGauld]

I have no real problem with constructive criticism and comments, and have received many during build threads to help point me in the right direction.

To me this is fine and I have also had PM's when I have messed up something simple such as putting the undercarriage doors on the wrong sides.

I was sent a very polite and helpful PM from another member advising me of this. I was really grateful for the help in pointing out my error and would not have had a problem with it being mentioned in the RFI tread.

But, that may just be me.

On this forum I have been given a massive amount of help and advice that have helped me improve and I still want to try new things and improve further.

One thing that we must remember is that it is very difficult to convey context in text and this can cause issues if it is read in the wrong way.

We also have a lot of members whose first language is not English and this has to be taken into account when reading replies.

Sorry this is all a bit rambling and everybody will have their own view as to what is acceptable but context is important.

I always take the time to read and then, if I feel it necessary, reread a reply so I don't take it the wrong way.

 

Cheers,

Alistair

[Adam Poultney]

2 hours ago, noelh said:

There  was a very amusing thread here where  people would write their  most negative criticisms. Such as 'You say this your first model in ten years? Well I  hope it's another ten years before we see a second'. Maybe someone would  restart that thread.

If it was posted seriously, i think that isn't criticism, it's an insult. But a thread like that would be hilarious and I'd be all for it

[Max Headroom]

If I can offer constructive advice and the circumstances are right, I will do so. Our skill levels will differ wildly and such advice needs to be tailored appropriately. Off the top of my head, if a new modeller complains of silvering of the markings, a few points on gloss varnish and setting solutions might be appropriate. An experienced modeller may moan about blotches on airbrushing and someone with airbrushing experience could offer help on settings etc.

 

Give advice in good faith. Think before pressing send.

 

Trevor

[Memphis]

I always count the bolts and rivets on my models and I'm glad to have some advice. But I will not say how many rivets need to be added, if I understand that the author will not count them. But there are people who are infuriated by any criticism. Unfortunately, there are a lot of them on Russian forums, where everyone competes in the number of models. They think that anyone who criticizes only ruins the fun of the build. So I started learning English at the age of 40. I began to receive more good advice in English than in my native and understandable language.

[jackroadkill]

I think it depends on the person receiving it.

[Steve Noble]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

If criticism isn’t too hard to cope with for you, you’ve put this in the wrong place, so I shall move it to Chat, as it’s got nowt to do with vehicles.

Certainly not Mike. Thanks for moving it to the correct place. 

Thanks for all the replies also about the question I asked. Some very useful responses from everyone. To be honest my worst critic is myself. I'm that person who will strip a perfectly nice paint job because I know I can do it better. I've always said to myself that on the day I build any model and I'm 100% happy with every part of it, that's the day I'll stop building models. I've come close a few times but never 100% happy with anything I've done...

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Personally I look for constructive criticism and helpful tips/hints. One of my main reasons for posting both WIP’s and RFI’s. I understand some do not like this though. Usually I give out all my praise and then add something like this. “If this were my build I would … “ or “Not sure if you knew this but this tip may help in the future”. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[daneel]

I can offer you my experience from years before: a buddy of mine just got into modelling at that time, and after a couple of good builds, he tried Hasegawa's 1/48 Harrier. He finished it really well, especially for someone actually really new to modelling. However, because of lack of experience, he never noticed he placed the intakes upside down. Instead of posting a criticism below his gallery, I just sent him a pm explaining where he went wrong and how. I also complimented the rest of his build and encouradged him to continue. Even though this was after the fact, as the Harrier was finished then, it still helped him along his way. This seems like a good way to help people, while avoiding shaming them in public.

[Rob G]

Eh, everyone these days expects a gold star, just for showing up. Personally, I seldom comment on the build at all and almost never comment on the failings (being all too aware of my own), unless there's a specific request in the accompanying text to that effect. It's just not worth the hassle. Smile and wave, boys, smile and wave, then move on. 

[treker_ed]

@Steve Noble I rarely post any comments in the RFI, for various reasons, and do not post any builds in there anymore! 

IGnore the fact of the missing pics, I can't replace them as (a) don't have the pics, and (b) no longer have the kit as it got badly damaged... The salient part is towards the end. That's why I don't post builds or comment in RFI anymore!

 

 

[Rabbit Leader]

I've lost count of the amount of times I've tried to 'educate' modelers (especially on FB) who have incorrectly applied two letter squadron codes the wrong way (example: AB-C one side, A-BC the other). 

No matter how nice I think I've approached the matter, there is always someone else who takes offence to my comments and tells me that I am wrong, or how the heck would I know? 

I now stop giving 'educational' feedback and just say something positive without offering advice, or just ignore things altogether. Shame it's all come to this, but trying to help sometimes is just not worth the trouble. 

 

Cheers.. Dave 

 

[Troy Smith]

18 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

especially on FB

Farcebook is weird.....I got accused of being a troll...

For posting information on Hurricane models on a Hurricane model group!

Not someone's builds, the actual kit, problems and corrections! 

Then they blocked me.   

58 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

No matter how nice I think I've approached the matter, there is always someone else who takes offence to my comments and tells me that I am wrong, or how the heck would I know? 

I now stop giving 'educational' feedback and just say something positive without offering advice, or just ignore things altogether. Shame it's all come to this, but trying to help sometimes is just not worth the trouble. 

Indeed.  But that's just life in general.  

 

 

I'm careful as to what I post on RFI, if it's a fixable problem, say missing yellow prop blade tips,  or metal chips on a wood blade,  then I may comment on that.

 

If I 'know' the builder, and that they are interested I may add more.

Some posters ask for feedback,  if I'm going to sayt this is incorrect, I then offer an example, or for a problem they might to work on in another build, a suggestion on a way to achieve it. 

And I also go for a layer method,  the positive accentuated,  a constructive critical point, and a overall positive final round up.  

 

8 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Give advice in good faith. Think before pressing send.

An excellent rule of thumb.

But the overall site ethos, which I usually sum up as "polite, friendly, helpful"  means that you rarely see tactless critiques here. 

 

One thing I do more often comment on, is bad presentation,  as in how often is an excellent model stuck onto a tatty cutting mat, spray booth or model jig?   

which is more about taking a little time to do better photos and is definitely in the fixable category..  

I refer my very basic set up for doing pics,  and other hints, like try outside on a slightly overcast day to get soft natural light for example,  this is one thing that is worth commentating on as it's not really hard to do, even just a neutral background will help, or example of simple backdrops,   and can really make a difference to a RFI.