Colour and markings of Alison engined Mustang

[fernandocouto]

Merry Christmas!  Greeting from Chinese mate!

My friend is building an Academy 1/48th P-51 kit-- reboxing of classic Accurate Miniatures. He is about to paint but has some issues for discussing.

 

1) Camo colours

As theme here: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235013910-p-51-mah-sweet-eva-lea-137322/ 

Whether upper camo was  OD or Dark Green/Dark Tan ? I feel the former is right. 

Seems like 2 coloura but does not correspond to any camo schemes. IMHO ground crew rubbed off some dust around markings.

 

2) Yellow "blotches"

In the past some modellers regarded them as paint chipped, now proved not approciate.

Is it a "roundel" or a "logo"?

Or a silouette of Texas ( 68th OG birthplace)? 

 

Then, why several A-36A carried yellow blotch ? Looks not identical to these on P-51.

[gingerbob]

The yellow blotch is gas-detecting paint.

[fernandocouto]

On 25/12/2022 at 18:09, gingerbob said:

The yellow blotch is gas-detecting paint.

After searching on forum, I found a copy of Scale Aircraft Modelling 2018. 10.  An article indicates the gas-detecting paint was painted in square of round patterns with 1 inch red edge, quite different from Mustangs in North Africa... 

 

Are there any examples of other A/Cs with yellow blotch(es) exclude P-51/A-36?

[Graham Boak]

Yes, lots of Spitfires in the Middle East/Italy have similar blotches in the rear fuselage, perhaps often obscured if on the Middle Stone areas?   However at a late stage this gas patch was available in camouflage colours, so is much less easy to distinguish.  There was considerable variation in presentation during the war.   During the BoB period, a diamond was most commonly used on the wing of fighters, perhaps with a red surround.   It has been said that this was because it was not painted directly onto the wing but issued as a patch that needed the edges holding down by tape or doped fabric.  The diamond may well have been a rotated square. but overseas they seem to have been less tidy and just added a splodge of paint.

 

I wonder if this fell out of use midwar but was restored after the Ju.88 raid on Bari resulted in the explosion of a US transport ship with a cargo of mustard gas.  Not that we were going to use it, of course, but we had to be prepared in case the dastardly Germans did.

[BS_w]

the gas detection was not paint here, it was  self adhesive patches, there was different shape productions.

[fernandocouto]

8 hours ago, BS_w said:

the gas detection was not paint here, it was  self adhesive patches, there was different shape productions.

“Patch” means  defect/battle damage  occured there,  tempotary treated with something like tapes?

[Graham Boak]

Ah, the flexibility of the English language.  The more general meaning is a small piece, not as in a small piece of cake, but usually something contrasting, as a small clearing in a forest could be called a patch of land.  Domestically, a piece of leather was often used to cover worn places in well-loved jackets, such as elbows or cuffs.  In this context a small piece of doped fabric was used to patch over holes, certainly on fabric covered aircraft but if time was a factor then on metal aircraft too.  So the patches here could be fabric soaked in the reactive agent, cut up into, or supplied as, small patches.

 

So to patch is one method of repair, but a patch can be more general.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Graham Boak
There was some clearly wrong use of words, I'm surprised if anyone made sense but particularly apologise to Fernando

[fernandocouto]

20 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Ah, the flexibility of the English language.  The more general meaning is a small piece, not as in a small piece of cake, but usually something contrasting, as a small clearing in a forest could be called a patch of land.  Domestically, a piece of leather was often used to cover worn places in well-loved jackets, such as elbows or cuffs.  In this context a small piece of doped fabric was used to patch over holes, certainly on fabric covered aircraft but if time was a factor then on metal aircraft too.  So the patches here could be fabric soaked in the reactive agent, cut up into, or supplied as, small patches.

 

So to patch is one method of repair, but a patch can be more general.

Thank you for your patience and explaining!  I misunderstood BS_w 's reply yesterday. 

Sorry for my careless reading. 

[Super Aereo]

The shape of the patch is the same, if rotated, on the aircraft in the original post. It was often visible on RAF aircraft in a trilobate, or "clover" shape, once the earlier square/diamond application becomes rare. I don't know whether it was an adhesive patch or gas-sensitive paint applied to a specified pattern, but I know that on British and American military vehicles in Europe a gas detecting patch was painted on or near the bonnet using either yellow or khaki paint...

[Phoenix44]

I thought gas detection patches were placed in view of the pilot? Why not put them there if you have the choice?

[Space Ranger]

As a Native Texan, I can assure you that the state is not shaped like that “patch.” It looks like this:

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Space Ranger

[Graham Boak]

1 hour ago, Phoenix44 said:

I thought gas detection patches were placed in view of the pilot? Why not put them there if you have the choice?

and the view of ground  crew who were likely to be the first to touch the exterior.  Or indeed observers in flying control or just on the ground as the aircraft enters the circuit.  There are arguments both ways.

[alt-92]

On 12/25/2022 at 9:52 AM, fernandocouto said:

) Yellow "blotches"

In the past some modellers regarded them as paint chipped, now proved not approciate.

Is it a "roundel" or a "logo"?

Or a silouette of Texas ( 68th OG birthplace)? 

That, to me,  is an in-field repair. Shape is irregular so not a gas patch, and it has the same paint as the serial letters.

[BS_w]

27 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

That, to me,  is an in-field repair. Shape is irregular so not a gas patch, and it has the same paint as the serial letters.

 

 

the patches were cutout with a punch and die. for large size shapes a flexible blade was mounted between wood blocks on a support to obtain a cutout with rounded edge.
I think one of these patch was cut in reverse face so they  were symmetrical

 

 

[Black Knight]

In the trade they are called 'clicker dies'

They look like this;

They are used in either a manual or hydraulic press. I use a 1.25T manual press with my dies to cut leather. I have lots of different shapes of clicker dies

To make a mirrored cut patch, just invert the material being cut

Funnily, they are called 'clicker dies' as when the blade makes the full cut through the material (leather, fabric, gasket et cetera) there is a loud 'click' sound

[ColFord]

The mustard-yellow "patch' is a USAAF gas detection patch.  In the relevant USAAF technical documentation it is described as a precut, adhesive backed 'decal' chemically treated to provide a visual alert to exposure to certain types of chemical weapons, in particular mustard gas.  On being exposed to one of the triggering chemicals the patch would change to a shade between pink to a red, colour intensity depending on the degree of exposure the patch received to the chemical agent.  They were to be placed at obvious and visible locations on the airframe where they could be seen by groundcrew as they approached an aircraft after a sortie as a visual warning, with appropriate decontamination procedures for the pilot and aircraft to be followed.  There were a couple of variations to the basic shape, partly so that as they were manufactured and cut out of the larger sheet of the chemical impregnated material, they maximised the yield of 'decals' from each original sheet.  Photos of USAAF P-51 and A-36 aircraft in the MTO show up to four of the patches being applied in some instances, two on each side - one on each side of the nose and one on each side of the rear fuselage, in some instances one of the patches is placed across the top of the rear fuselage, either just behind the cockpit or just in front of the tail surfaces,   There was a later variant of the patch developed that was again in an irregular shape and provided as an adhesive backed  'decal' that was in a colour closely resembling olive drab.   From available photographic and documentary evidence, aircraft left the NAA factory for shipping to the MTO without the patches and the patches were applied either at depot level when aircraft were reassembled or at unit level when first received.  They were as carried on the A-36s loaned to the RAF for use by 1437 Flight in the Tac/R role - see photo of HK944 at Foggia Italy in November 1943.  Photos of the other A-36s used by 1437 Flight RAF also show the other A-36s carrying the patches on both sides, usually located roughly around the same locations as applied to the USAAF ones - slight variation in placement and angles the patches are placed. 

 

A-36A HK944 1437Flt Foggia Italy Nov1943 by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by ColFord
Typo

[Black Knight]

I suppose the irregular shape made the patch more noticeable

My grandfather told stories about men he knew who got mustard gas poisoning from the residue it left on helmets and equipment in WW1. So you don't want your groundcrew getting poisoned

[Phoenix44]

14 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I suppose the irregular shape made the patch more noticeable

My grandfather told stories about men he knew who got mustard gas poisoning from the residue it left on helmets and equipment in WW1. So you don't want your groundcrew getting poisoned

Ignore.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Phoenix44