Algy Spurr photo album #1 Hurricane IIA PR, DG622, a converted early Mk.I, L1658

[Troy Smith]

In a PM discussion with @2996 Victor  he linked me to some fantastic photos of a PR Hurricane.

I contacted the photographer, well, the photographers son who had posted them,  and he was happy to have them posted here for discussion, as long as his dad got a credit.

Looking at the other images, there were some fascinating ones,  which had various questions,  so with the permission on Brian Spurr,  and thanks again to  his father, Algy Spurr,  I'll start a series of threads on them. 

On with the photos, and I think it would be good to show the photographer in the first photo

"Photo taken of my dad Algy Spurr (probably with his camera, he was a photographer in the air force). Hawker Hurricane - No. 2 P.R.U. (Photographic Reconnaissance Unit) - DG622 - Pilot is Warrant Officer Carpenter with the PR guys, my father Algy Spurr at right."

Note the bulge on the wing for a wing camera.   I'll come back to this in a moment as I just spotted something..

 

"Photo taken of my dad Algy Spurr (probably with his camera, he was a photographer in the air force). Hawker Hurricane - No. 2 P.R.U. (Photographic Reconnaissance Unit) - DG622 - my dad underneath working on loading the camera.

 

 

 

Sadly not clea enough to see if there are camera ports

 

Some camouflage and markings points

Probably one of the 'bosun blue' Hurricanes, with a lighter blue and red roundels.

The fuselage roundel centre is perhaps the red remaining from overpainting the rest of a C1 type with a lighter blue.

I'm going @JackG to perhaps do one of his very useful analysis of size and possible colour options here...please.

 

Now, as noted in the link, DG622 was converted from a Mk.I, L1658.

L1658 was a pretty old airframe.

delivered 28-Sep-38, making it the 111 production Hurricane.

served with sq 32/242/56/5 OTU/55OTU 
10-Feb-41ConvertedTo mark II DG622, to Malta 1 Feb 1942 then with 69/2 PRU

30-Sep-43CAT E/SOC

 

Now it not that hard to make a Mk.I into a Mk.II, new engine, new engine bearers, 3 cowl panels, a belly panel, new front wing fillets, new carb intake and radiator, and associated systems,  and you would assume for an old fabric wing ..replacement metal wings.... ?
 

Now here the bit that caught my eye when looking at the camera bulge, I have cropped the image and played with brightness and gamma..

 

Note behind the bulge the panel lines look straight, and there is a distinct line front to back of wing. 

Now  L1658 is an early Hurricane, and built with fabric wings... now compare the panel lines,  metal A wing have distinctive hexagon centres, fabric wing have all rectangles, and the fabric starts outboard of the gun bays.

 

and I'm going to ask  @JackG  if he could be so kind to to perhaps have a look at the 3/4 shot 427013, and see where the landing light is.

I just dug out a kit (PCM 1/32 as it was too hand) and by the highly scientific method of holding up in front of the image on the screen and aligning the root and tip light,  the landing light looked to be a bay inboard. 

 

I'm not sure on this, but if this IS a fabric wing, then this is fascinating, implying that Mk.II conversions may have retained a fabric wing....  

If it's not, then all please laugh....

 

 

Re the wing camera bulges, famous image of a IIB in India

 

BM969 of S Flight No 3 PRU

 

Again, while I have seen description of the fuselage camera fitted, I have seen no mention of wing mountings, but the Hurricane has a thick wing, which maybe worth a thread in itself.

 

I've spent an age looking at pics and trying to find a same angle metal metal wing but I've had enough for now...

@StevSmar @tango98 @Graham Boak @Geoffrey Sinclair @Dave Fleming 

 

and thanks again to Brian and Algy Spurr.

PS I was going to post the Beuafighter PR images, and I find they are already here, and @Brian Spurr is a member.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Troy Smith
added a PS

[Alex Gordon]

I don't remember where I found this photo so I can't give the relevant credit but I'm wondering if this is the same airframe at a not much later date.The paint damage just behind the propellor and just below the rear of the exhausts is what's making me think it's a possibility.

 

Edited February 12 by Alex Gordon

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Alex Gordon said:

I'm wondering if this is the same airframe at a not much later date.T

Good spot. "Kathleen" is quite well known image, oddly enough I can see details  on a phone better than the laptop ,  one detail missed by both of us in the airframe  ID, the windscreen!  Much clearer in your pic, but when I look and zoom, clearly visible  on 427013 image as well. its the original curved lower edge as originally fitted, with added external armour, so unless  2 PRU had another reconditioned old Mk.I then this looks a match.  It also looks to be metal winged,  as I can see a line of screws for the wingtip, fabric wings did not have removable tips, as well as an access hatch.  

 

One detail I forgot is the plane has had new side panels with tropical vents fitted as well.  

Cheers 

T

 

[Dave Fleming]

The front 3/4 view seems to show metal panelling under the wing - could it be the original centre section with metal outer panels?

 

[Graham Boak]

That would be normal - it was the design of the outer panels that changed, not the centre-section.

[Dave Fleming]

7 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

That would be normal - it was the design of the outer panels that changed, not the centre-section.

Of course, I was distracted by the apparent panel line going all the way back outboard of the gun bays and thinking that was the joint.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The documents I have only note metal/fabric wings as manufactured, not as altered.

 

L1658, Merlin II makers number 573, W.D. number 117462, allotted 22-9-38 and delivered direct to 32Sq 28-9-36, 242Sq 24-2-40, 56Sq 23-5-40, 54MU 13-6-40, ATRG 15-6-40, 27MU 28-7-40, 5OTU 22-8-40, 13MU 8-12-40, 5MU 16-2-41, R-R 21-3-41, cv IIa DG622, 10 MU 28-6-41, 52 MU 18-7-41, Shipped Takoradi 6-8-41 on SS Ramsay, arrived Takoradi 27-9-41, flown out of Takoradi 10-41, reported on strength Middle East 14-10-41, Malta 1-2-42, Cat E 20-9-43.

 

107 MU modified 4 Hurricanes to PRU standards, then 103MU fitted extra fuel.  103MU received an order for 12 special Long Range PR Hurricanes, to carry the cameras and extra fuel but also full 8 machine gun armament and radio, but the order was reduced to 3.  No serials given.

 

[JackG]

Will try setting up a color study of the fuselage roundel later.   What could be used for a digital sample of bosun blue?

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, JackG said:

What could be used for a digital sample of bosun blue?

this has been discussed here on occasion, I think this was the last time

it has hex and CIELAB codes if that helps? 

 

  

On 31/07/2018 at 12:26, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I don't speak hex codes but the code converts to the more tangible CIELAB coordinate system of L=19.014 a=6.041 b-21.918

 

CIELAB is a 3-axis Cartesian coordinate system. It's easiest to think of the L-axis as the vertical one and the a-b axis plane as horizontal.

L=0 is theoretical black whilst L=100 is theoretical total reflectivity. The a-axis and b-axis are theoretically limitless but practically bound by visible light, and the practical bounds are different in each direction. The a-axis runs from negative being green to positive being red, with the b-axis running from negative being blue and positive being yellow.

 

L=19 a=6 b=-22 is a very dark, reddish but fairly vibrant blue

 

That sounds like a substantially Ultramarine based paint to me.

 

Thanks for helping on this, much appreciated.

cheers

T

[JackG]

For determining the fuselage roundel diameter, it consists of two separate studies, whereby the photo is scaled to fit within a 35 inch circle, followed by another scaling for a 36 inch circle.  In both cases, the photo area of the roundel is purposely left slightly short in the width area, to account for perspective not showing the true width.  It does seem more likely to be a 36" roundel as the  red center sits near perfectly at it's original 12" size.

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

For the colour study, the center has remained as dull red, since in b/w panchromatic film, the tone shifts automatically to be lighter than the blue ring.  Unless it is known for certain that the centers were also painted lighter, that then could change the results of what matches better, in terms of grey tones.   Have included as many of the standard paints that may have been available to paint over the blue.   Also included one extra sample as a mixture of Bosun Blue with 25% Azure.   This was arrived at by looking at the grey tones of the photo.

 

 

The software simulation reveals that as a straight forward repaint of the blue, Dk. Med. appears to be the closest match, though in terms of grey tones, it could go slightly lighter.   The mixture created with the Bosun and Azure may be much closer, but no proof this is actually what was done in the field.

 

 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

Have included as many of the standard paints that may have been available to paint over the blue.

Thank you very much for all this, a fascinating and helpful bit of analysis.

 

One other colour to perhaps consider would be the pre camo 'bright' blue?  

 

cheers

T

 

[JackG]

 

 

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

One other colour to perhaps consider would be the pre camo 'bright' blue?  

 

cheers

T

 

 

Took a look at the possibility of a roundel repainted bright blue, and in the panchromatic film emulation. the shift to grey is exactly the same value as that for Deep Sky - so too dark.

 

regards,

Jack

[StevSmar]

On 12/14/2022 at 5:07 PM, Troy Smith said:

I contacted the photographer, well, the photographers son who had posted them,  and he was happy to have them posted here for discussion, as long as his dad got a credit.

They’re some fantastic photos of PR-Hurricanes Troy, thanks for posting them!

[Yes_Man]

I'm planning this as a future build and just noticed that a future release from Aims claims this Hurricane retained its fabric wing from the gunbay in. Is this correct? From the pictures it appears that the entire wing was replaced with a metal one, which you would expect from its upgrade from an early Mk.I to Mk.II prior to the PR refit. If it retained the metal "centre" on the underside from its fabric Mk.I spec and only had the outer wing changed that would imply the Mk.II metal wing from the wing root out including the gun bays. Some clarity would be nice on this, not that I mind a "hybrid" wing seeing as that's quite unique.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Yes_Man

[Troy Smith]

28 minutes ago, Yes_Man said:

a future release from Aims claims this Hurricane retained its fabric wing from the gunbay in. Is this correct? From the pictures it appears that the entire wing was replaced with a metal one, which you would expect from its upgrade from an early Mk.I to Mk.II prior to the PR refit.

No. All metal wing.  I am corresponding with AIMS on this, and pointed this out, a misunderstanding from my garbled post above.   The set has not yet appeared, AFAIK it will be corrected when issued.

HTH

[Yes_Man]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

No. All metal wing.  I am corresponding with AIMS on this, and pointed this out, a misunderstanding from my garbled post above.   The set has not yet appeared, AFAIK it will be corrected when issued.

HTH

Thanks for that Troy. Judging from your earlier post I had assumed an all metal wing but it confused me when I saw the sets instructions. In any case looking forward to the set whenever it is released and for your help.