Question: Interior color, Finnish H-75 Hawks.

[Zack]

Hi again,

I would like to build a model of a H-75 Hawk in Finnish colors.
A little bit to late to commemorate the Finnish independence day but anyway.

From what I understand the Finnish Hawk's were sold by the German's and were part of captured aircraft originating from the defeated French air-force but also from the Norwegian campaign. So most likely very different batches and versions.

And this is were I need help  again!

Would anyone be able to advise on the Interior color on these Hawk's?
Did the Germans repaint them? What was the color in the cockpit? Gear bays? Landing gear?

Any external differences (kit at hand is the 1941 P-36 Pearl Harbor Defender)?
Armament?

So many questions - so little olut...

 

I have seen the very nice walk around on this site, thank you BM

 

Thank you for stopping by and have a really nice day!

Zack

 

[Troy Smith]

1 minute ago, Zack said:

Any external differences (kit at hand is the 1941 P-36 Pearl Harbor Defender)?

Make? Scale?

I'm guessing from the title this is the Hobbycraft/Academy kit in 1/48th? 

 

4 minutes ago, Zack said:

From what I understand the Finnish Hawk's were sold by the German's and were part of captured aircraft originating from the defeated French air-force but also from the Norwegian campaign. So most likely very different batches and versions.

Correct, The short is you need to pick your subject with care, as the Finns ended up with Twin Wasp and Cyclone engine versions.

 

Most had Twin Wasp

SBS do/did a sheet, the review has a reasonable summary of what version and what they were serialed.

https://www.hyperscale.com/2017/reviews/decals/sbsd72018reviewbg_1.htm

 

decals have also been done by Inscale and Aeromaster. 

 

if you can find the Mushroom Model Publication on Finnish Fighter colours is likely your best reference,

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Finnish-Fighter-Colours-White-Hardcover/dp/B015X553SK

 

though there is a Finnish monograph(s) in the Suomen Ilmavoimat Historia series

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CURTISS-HAWK-75A-Finnish-History/dp/B004LH0Y0E

which are heavily photo based.  Older version of the book can be found as scans if you search. 

 

I just used Amazon as they  have the ISBN and other details.

 

HTH

[72modeler]

Wish I had an answer for you regarding the interior colors but maybe @Antti_K could help you. From the MMP Finnish Fighter Colors, 1939-45 vol. 2 There was no text regarding interior colors, but the following might be useful: all H-75’s were received ftom German war booty stocks- from captured French and Norwegian  aircraft. All were overhauled  and repainted in Germany using RLM71 overall for  the uppersurfaces and RLM65 for the undersurfaces. Msybe the interiors were repainted in RLM02 or RLM66 or possibly left as they were  finished when captured. Around 1943, the existing Cyclone and Twin Wasp powered H-75’s  were overhauled by the State Aircraft Factory, so they could have had their original interiors repainted- I have no idea what that might have been. Wish I could be more helpful- if I can find anything definite, I will post it  here.

Mike

[dragonlanceHR]

Finnish CR-714 and MS406 had original cockpit colors, I assume that Hawks would be the same.

[BS_w]

Curtiss export airplanes as H75 were delivered with interior surfaces coated with one coat of prussian blue Lionoil following by one coat of yellow-green primer:

 

5. DETAIL REQUIREMENTS:

 

5.52       Interior Metal Parts and Surfaces: the finish for interior(unexposed) parts and surfaces (wings, fuselage, control surfaces) shall consist of one of the following schemes, unless a specific scheme is specified in the contract.

- 5.521  All alclad 24ST used as skin covering for wing, fuselage, tail surfaces, and other parts fabricated in the heat treated conditions to be coated both sides with blue Lionoil shop coating, or equivalent, prior to fabrication and assembly.After assembly all Lionoil exposed on exterior to be removed to leave natural alclad as the exterior finish. Lionoil to be left on the interior.

- 5.522  All alclad, 2S, 3S, 4S, and 52S parts in the interior of wing, fuselage, tail surfaces, etc. (except fuel and oil tanks): No anodize, no organic finish before assembly other than shop coating which was on the parts before fabrication.

- 5.523  All non alclad aluminium alloy and magnesium alloy parts not specified elsewhere, including castings, forgings, extrusions, formed parts, etc.: surface treatment, if any, (see paragraphe 5.2 and 5.4). One coat of primer and one coat of cockpit coating before assembly.

- 5.524  All interior steel parts except corrosion resistant steel and large welded structures: Cadmium plate. One coat of primer and one coat of cockpit coating before assembly.

- 5.525  The interior of the entire fuselage, and parts enclosed therein to be given one coat of the following mixture to produce uniform and satisfactory appearance:

COCKPIT COATING FORMULA

                One gallon zinc chromate primer

                one-tenth gallon black enamel

                Two gallon of Toluol

                4 ounces aluminium paste

- 5.526  No touch-up operation is necessary on rivets or bolts.

 

- 5.527  Aluminium alloy connector boxes, conduit tubing, fittings, and the clamps need not be finished before assembly. After assemby such parts in the interior of the fuselage only receive one coat of cockpit coating(5.25)

 

 

Original paint on french Hawk A3

Edited December 14, 2022 by BS_w

[spitfire]

Here's a photo of the unrestored cockpit of the Thai H75 if you decide to go the non repainted by the Germans route.

 

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Zack]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:29 PM, Troy Smith said:

Make? Scale?

I'm guessing from the title this is the Hobbycraft/Academy kit in 1/48th? 

 

Hello @Troy Smith ,

Thank you for your input!
Books on order (Kindle).
The kit is the 1/32 Special Hobby P-36A #SH 32003, "Pearl Harbor Defender".
Review here http://kits.kitreview.com/sh32003reviewbg_1.htm by Brett Green.
I am on a bit of  "Nordic" mission atm with the SH 32044 Fiat G.50-II Freccia, J-29 Tunnan and J-8 Gladiator.

Thank you very much for your kind help as always!
Best regards
Zack

 

[Zack]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:41 PM, BS_w said:

Curtiss export airplanes as H75 were delivered with interior surfaces coated with one coat of prussian blue Lionoil following by one coat of yellow-green primer:

 

5. DETAIL REQUIREMENTS:

 

5.52       Interior Metal Parts and Surfaces: the finish for interior(unexposed) parts and surfaces (wings, fuselage, control surfaces) shall consist of one of the following schemes, unless a specific scheme is specified in the contract.

- 5.521  All alclad 24ST used as skin covering for wing, fuselage, tail surfaces, and other parts fabricated in the heat treated conditions to be coated both sides with blue Lionoil shop coating, or equivalent, prior to fabrication and assembly.After assembly all Lionoil exposed on exterior to be removed to leave natural alclad as the exterior finish. Lionoil to be left on the interior.

- 5.522  All alclad, 2S, 3S, 4S, and 52S parts in the interior of wing, fuselage, tail surfaces, etc. (except fuel and oil tanks): No anodize, no organic finish before assembly other than shop coating which was on the parts before fabrication.

- 5.523  All non alclad aluminium alloy and magnesium alloy parts not specified elsewhere, including castings, forgings, extrusions, formed parts, etc.: surface treatment, if any, (see paragraphe 5.2 and 5.4). One coat of primer and one coat of cockpit coating before assembly.

- 5.524  All interior steel parts except corrosion resistant steel and large welded structures: Cadmium plate. One coat of primer and one coat of cockpit coating before assembly.

- 5.525  The interior of the entire fuselage, and parts enclosed therein to be given one coat of the following mixture to produce uniform and satisfactory appearance:

COCKPIT COATING FORMULA

                One gallon zinc chromate primer

                one-tenth gallon black enamel

                Two gallon of Toluol

                4 ounces aluminium paste

- 5.526  No touch-up operation is necessary on rivets or bolts.

 

- 5.527  Aluminium alloy connector boxes, conduit tubing, fittings, and the clamps need not be finished before assembly. After assemby such parts in the interior of the fuselage only receive one coat of cockpit coating(5.25)

 

 

Original paint on french Hawk A3

 

This is very good, thank you very much @BS_w!

Much appreciated - and also helps me understand a completely different question I have struggled with for some time now - blue Lionoil shop coating.

Thank you very much!
Best regards
Zack

[Zack]

Dear All, 

@72modeler, @dragonlanceHR, @spitfire,thank you very much for taking your time and comment!

That cockpit picture is going to be very helpful - I guess I am going "no repaint" atm - and I am sure that the moment I button up the air-frame there will be proof of RLM02

 

Thank You guys - TGIF - have a wonderful modelling weekend!

Zack

[Klaus Sirén]

On 14/12/2022 at 22:06, dragonlanceHR said:

Finnish CR-714 and MS406 had original cockpit colors, I assume that Hawks would be the same.

But the CR-714 and the first batch of Moranes were bought from the French during the Winter War 1939-40. The Hawks were bought after the collapse of France.

[Tomas Enerdal]

A little off topic perhaps;

Regarding Swedish J8 colours, see thread "Export Gloster Gladiator colours?" here. A possible underside colour could be the Gloster underside blue, as found on Gloster-built Hurricanes. Cannot find the Paul Lucas article just now, but I probably know where to look if you want me to.. 

Skål!

/Tomas

 

EDIT: Found the Paul Lucas article: Camouflage & Markings No. 2, The Battle For Britain - RAF. Blue is said to match FS 35414 but the original colour is lighter and less green.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Tomas Enerdal

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Luftwaffe Curtiss Hawks were repainted after having been captured by the Luftwaffe.First they had the German markings painted on the original French camouflage than they were completely in RLM02 and later with the lower parts in RLM04.After that they were repainted in dark green allover before being given to the Ilmavoimat which again painted them in green and black with light blue undersides.I do not think that the cockpit was repainted.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero