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Sea Hurricane IIC 787 sq, listed as NF721, Wittering/Tangmere - object under wing?


Troy Smith

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Image I ran across at on asisbiz... it's a crop, but a very interesting one (see below for full image)  and not one I recall seeing. 

Fleet-Air-Arm-Sea-Hurricane-Y6F-foregrou

 

Looks to be a Sea Hurricane II, note hook cut out, coded Y6F, ( I'll look this up later) , not sure of Mk,  I'd guess a C, but I can't see any cannons, but these were removed when they were fitted with rocket plates, which this appears to be fitted with.

Ah, a look in Sturtivant's Squadrons of the FAA  (thanks to Graham Boak for sending me the older version)  it's not Y6, but  YO  (is there a name for the struck through O ?) 

Listed as 787 sq, Wittering/Tangmere, has  YO F as Sea Hurricane IIc NF721

PS Edit

787 Sq were the FAA unit attached to the Air Fighting Development Unit (AFDU), in January 1943 "z" flight was formed with Swordfish, Fulmars and Sea Hurricanes as a development unit for rocket projectiles on naval Aircraft (from Sturtivant) list Sea Hurricane IIC;s from April 43 to September 44.

Searching for Corsair JT104 led to an image captioned "Hellcat FN327 being rearmed at RAF Wittering 27th Oct 1943 IWM A20021

the Corsair image is IWM A20025,  so perhaps we also have a date.

 

And there is also looks to be be something between the underwing roundel and the rocket rails.

It maybe just be some type of control lock,  but it's not like anything I have seen on a Hurricane before.

Modified pitot tube? And if so, why?

I've taken a zoom snapshot, and made it darker, which shows the item in question better.   

EDIT as this was a development unit, is the some other type of rocket rail? 

52559560411_c3905b6e0a_b.jpg

 

the uncropped pic is here, with a zoom facility, the Corsair is JT104 according to the caption.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205186751

large_000000.jpg

 

So,  any thoughts on this? 

 @iang @StevSmar @Grey Beema @Seahawk @ClaudioN  @Graham Boak  @tango98

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The word you want is "theta", a Greek letter, but here it is used for a  zero to distinguish it from a letter O.  An O with a diagonal slash, the Greek "phi", was used to represent the latter F for the carrier Formidable.  Remember that the officer class was classically educated, this sort of thing was perfectly normal for them.  In the 70s we used dashes or slashes to represent O and 0 when writing coding sheets for typing into computer programs.  To my shame, I forget which was which.

 

I wonder if the device under the wing is a spacer, to place the rail lower so that the blast cleared the underside of the wing.  Underwing blast plates were mounted on Hurricanes, Hellcats, Fireflies and other types for this purpose.  Later changes to the rail design made this unnecessary.

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

 

I wonder if the device under the wing is a spacer, to place the rail lower so that the blast cleared the underside of the wing.

It look too far outboard, but that maybe just an impression.

 

I'm somewhat chastened to find this

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235035506-revell-172-sea-hurricane-mkiic/#elControls_2985809_menu

and that it has been done Revell... 

27085728438_1e7c836411_b.jpg

 

Given it's 2nd line training role, would  the codes have been yellow? 

 

interestingly the 1984 edition of the Sturtivant FAA Squadrons has a small pic at the bottom of page 141 of 787 Z flight Hurricane, with what look like a Sky band and C type upperwing roundels.   Look to be a IIC, can vaguely see wing access hatches.

pic credit is H.J Fairhead,  is it reproduced larger anywhere else? 

 

intriguingly it also list 787 as having a Hurricane IV, KZ573 from Jun to Nov 1943.

One maybe for @Sgifford ? 

Never heard of a Navy operated Mk.IV before...

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It looks outboard to me too, but could this just be an illusion because of the bright colour?  No idea what else it could be.

 

At this time, FAA training unit codes were yellow.

 

When this kit came out I recognised the codes as belonging to a unit operating from Inskip, just up the road from me and now used as a communications unit.  It was operating Sea Hurricanes for deck landing training and for rocket-firing training for pilots intended to go to the Firefly units working up just across the Ribble at Burscough.   These SH lacked the cannon, retaining the stubs.  I believe you have posted pictures of these Hurris deck-landing on HMS Ravager, showing the mounting points for the rocket rails?  Possibly not 787?

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12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The word you want is "theta", a Greek letter, but here it is used for a  zero to distinguish it from a letter O.  An O with a diagonal slash, the Greek "phi", was used to represent the latter F for the carrier Formidable.  Remember that the officer class was classically educated, this sort of thing was perfectly normal for them.  In the 70s we used dashes or slashes to represent O and 0 when writing coding sheets for typing into computer programs.  To my shame, I forget which was which.

 

I wonder if the device under the wing is a spacer, to place the rail lower so that the blast cleared the underside of the wing.  Underwing blast plates were mounted on Hurricanes, Hellcats, Fireflies and other types for this purpose.  Later changes to the rail design made this unnecessary.

Theta looks like this Θ or ϴ,  an O with a horisontal bar or whatever.  It was indeed used in hand writing to represent zero as opposed to capital o, something I learned the hard way after having used a couple of days searching for a program I inadvertently had named with a zero in place of a capital o.

 

as to the object under the wing, I'm biased toward the blast plate used on Hurricanes. I do not believe in special modifications on UK based units  

 

HTH Finn

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59 minutes ago, FinnAndersen said:

as to the object under the wing, I'm biased toward the blast plate used on Hurricanes.

I was going to say 'cobblers' but while hunting for images of the rocket installation

Hawker-Hurricane-IV-Trop-RAF-BP173-North

 

In the best 'magic eye' tradition, I now see the light is catching the side of the blast plate and the pitot tube, and not being a very sharp image,  I saw them combined!  

52559560411_c3905b6e0a_b.jpg

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The word you want is "theta", a Greek letter, but here it is used for a  zero to distinguish it from a letter O.  An O with a diagonal slash, the Greek "phi", was used to represent the latter F for the carrier Formidable.  Remember that the officer class was classically educated, this sort of thing was perfectly normal for them.

OK, that makes sense, but how was this said,  was it a method to distinguish a O from and 0 (an oh from a zero) ,  I mean was 787 sq  code spoken  as "why theta" or "why zero" ? 

 

Still, a Sea hurricane with a photo of blast plates and standard rails is interesting. 

(I know the 767 sq have the plates, and the Vindex have the shipboard modification to rails only)  

 

Graham, do later issues of the Sturtivant book have a larger image of the small photo I asked about? 

12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

the 1984 edition of the Sturtivant FAA Squadrons has a small pic at the bottom of page 141 of 787 Z flight Hurricane, with what look like a Sky band and C type upperwing roundels.   Look to be a IIC, can vaguely see wing access hatches.

pic credit is H.J Fairhead,  is it reproduced larger anywhere else? 

 

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12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

It look too far outboard, but that maybe just an impression.

 

I'm somewhat chastened to find this

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235035506-revell-172-sea-hurricane-mkiic/#elControls_2985809_menu

and that it has been done Revell... 

27085728438_1e7c836411_b.jpg

 

Given it's 2nd line training role, would  the codes have been yellow? 

 

 

I was going to highlight the Revell issue but you beat me to the draw.  I bought it on sight, being a sucker for quirky markings, but lost interest when I realised the codes should have been in Yellow (just as they should have been in a previous issue for K1F - Revell have them in Red).

 

12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

intriguingly it also list 787 as having a Hurricane IV, KZ573 from Jun to Nov 1943.

One maybe for @Sgifford ? 

Never heard of a Navy operated Mk.IV before...

 

You seem to have lit upon the only Hurricane IV known to have been operated by the FAA.  From Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft:

 

48 MU [Hawarden, aircraft storage unit] to 787Z Sqn St Merryn/Yeovilton 12/6/43.  Left 1/11/43.  ATA Sherburn to Silloth 30/5/45.

 

Assuming I'm looking at what you are drawing my attention to, my vote is also for the edge of the RP blast plate.

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22 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

OK, that makes sense, but how was this said,  was it a method to distinguish a O from and 0 (an oh from a zero) ,  I mean was 787 sq  code spoken  as "why theta" or "why zero" ? 

 

I'd say "why zero". Classic education was not common, lots of other ranks would have to reference it also

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FAA codes were a letter then a number, so it was a zero but would be pronounced as "oh" either way.  Zero was not "common usage" then or now.  For example, six-oh-seven squadron not six-zero-seven.  It is really since we started making more phone calls requiring long strings of numbers and letters that we (Brits) have needed to distinguish a zero all that often. 

 

However, on Formidable "phi" was pronounced F.  I can't imagine any circumstances where "theta" in a code would be pronounced T.  This is not a competition to come up with one...

 

I was thinking of  the earlier issue of the kit with K1 codes.

 

A Mk.IV would be a perfectly reasonable choice for the FAA to use for rocket-firing training, but wouldn't be as useful for deck-landing.  Presumably they had lots of spare Sea Hurricanes by then, and adapting them for rocket firing wouldn't be too difficult.

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23 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

FAA codes were a letter then a number, so it was a zero but would be pronounced as "oh" either way.  Zero was not "common usage" then or now.  For example, six-oh-seven squadron not six-zero-seven.  It is really since we started making more phone calls requiring long strings of numbers and letters that we (Brits) have needed to distinguish a zero all that often. 

 

However, on Formidable "phi" was pronounced F.  I can't imagine any circumstances where "theta" in a code would be pronounced T.  This is not a competition to come up with one...

 

I was thinking of  the earlier issue of the kit with K1 codes.

 

A Mk.IV would be a perfectly reasonable choice for the FAA to use for rocket-firing training, but wouldn't be as useful for deck-landing.  Presumably they had lots of spare Sea Hurricanes by then, and adapting them for rocket firing wouldn't be too difficult.

I have to say on the first photo it looks like an 8 to me! As for phone numbers it was oh 1 when I first moved to London then oh 71. My mobile is still oh 78 oh 8! At least we don't do it in pairs of numbers like the French.

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31 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

I have to say on the first photo it looks like an 8 to me!

See what you mean,  Y8 is a different unit.  The photo was caption Y6, which is what I looked up, but   YO  is the only code that matches type and place. 

It was a new one for me.

  

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KZ573, only mark IV reported with the RN in the aircraft cards, Merlin XX, 48MU 14-4-43 RNAS St.Merryn (temporary loan for 3 months) 12-6-43 RNAS Yeovilton 5MU 27-11-43 287Sq 14-1-44 Morrisons riw 22-3-45 22MU 2-5-45 AW/Golbn? 4-5-45, 22 MU 30-5-45, SOC scrap 14-5-47

 

NF721, Sea IIC, Merlin XX, 20 MU 14-5-43, RNAS 9-6-43.

 

Talking to an old time computer person O was the letter O, a slash through the circle/oval meant zero.

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