Colour of late war Bf-109 main gear legs?

[Tomas Enerdal]

I have noted on b/w pics that the main gear legs of late war Bf-109G/K are often considerably darker than the inside of the gear covers. Any particular reason for this? Some special need for protective paint/finish?

I'm aware of the fact that many parts were finished, including paint, by subcontractors. And also that requirements for specific painting procedures were eased due to lack of paint close to the wars end. But again, always darker, not the other way around.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Tomas Enerdal

[SafetyDad]

Here's a shot showing two airframes with differing colour gear legs

 

 

looks like two different colours here on these two? Perhaps RLM02 on the left-hand aircraft and RLM66 on the other to my eye but other viewers may have a different view - Luftwaffe colours tend to do that .

 

The nearer airframe may be Erla built going by the all-over dark green paintwork.

 

Remember that this picture shows differing colours within the same colour shot, so it's not just colour shift in the negative.

 

As far as I recall, the legs could be 02, 76 or 66. Or indeed red.

 

HTH

 

SD

[Tomas Enerdal]

Thanks for that interesting pic!

 

I've read about the red gear legs (even though I cannot remember whether it was connected to the C3 or B4 fuel).

However the DB605D of many/most G-10 and all K-4 could use either fuel.

[Graham Boak]

C3 fuel required red legs.  It was the intention of the RLM that all the production engines would use either fuel, but it is worth remembering that the power output would be less using B4 because it would not permit as high a boost pressure without engine damage.

[fastterry]

12 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Here's a shot showing two airframes with differing colour gear legs

 

 

looks like two different colours here on these two? Perhaps RLM02 on the left-hand aircraft and RLM66 on the other to my eye but other viewers may have a different view - Luftwaffe colours tend to do that .

 

The nearer airframe may be Erla built going by the all-over 82 paintwork.

 

Remember that this picture shows differing colours within the same colour shot, so it's not just colour shift in the negative.

 

As far as I recall, the legs could be 02, 76 or 66. Or indeed red.

 

HTH

 

SD

Not legs related but I think both are Erla built, typical spotty paint job on the grey one and all over green on the other one. Damn thread drift.

 

TRF

[Tomas Enerdal]

I'm trying to find out if any version of the DB605D was limited to C3 fuel only?

If I understand it correctly the DB could use B4+MW50 or C3 only. The DC could use C3+MW50, but it is said to be able to adjust a DC back to DB. If this is correct then it could use B4.(or is this the DMO?)

DCM has been mentioned as not being able to be adjusted back to B4 fuel, but it was probably not mass produced.

If all this is correct very few G-10 and no K-4 would qualify for red gear legs.

 

On the other hand, if DC could only use C3, then red legs would be possible.

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I am sorry if I ask but what is DC,DCM and DMO?

DB is of course Daimler Benz but I never heard of the three other.

The Daimler Benz DB605 engine was built as DB605A,B,AS,D and AM.

 

Thank you very much

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Tomas Enerdal]

They are sub-variants of the Daimler Benz 605D. My main info comes from the French modeller, historian and writer Jean-Claude Mermet; Mermet, Messerschmitt Bf 109G-1 through K-4: Engines and Fittings. Marnaz, France: Jean-Claude Mermet SA, 1999.

This book can be loaded from the net here: http://www.motag.de/DokuBf-109.pdf

The same information is also written, but in slightly less detail in Messerschmitt Bf 109 (English edition) by Jean-Claude Mermet and Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt: charactère, 2017 (I suppose he writes about them in the two-part French-language version of the book as well, but I don't have them)

Edited December 12, 2022 by Tomas Enerdal

[Icedtea]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:16 AM, SafetyDad said:

Here's a shot showing two airframes with differing colour gear legs

 

 

looks like two different colours here on these two? Perhaps RLM02 on the left-hand aircraft and RLM66 on the other to my eye but other viewers may have a different view - Luftwaffe colours tend to do that .

 

The nearer airframe may be Erla built going by the all-over dark green paintwork.

 

Remember that this picture shows differing colours within the same colour shot, so it's not just colour shift in the negative.

 

As far as I recall, the legs could be 02, 76 or 66. Or indeed red.

 

HTH

 

SD

Perhaps the differing colours indicated the factory of manufacture (albeit taking into account the nature of late war logistics that is ;o)  ...opening can and stepping back smartly)

[SafetyDad]

43 minutes ago, Icedtea said:

Perhaps the differing colours indicated the factory of manufacture (albeit taking into account the nature of late war logistics that is ;o)  ...opening can and stepping back smartly)

 

That would be entirely plausible. However your countryman @fastterry has suggested these are both from the same Erla factory by their camouflage. However, they are from different times - the all over dark green was a very late Erla style, with the 'spotty' version being earlier - perhaps from 1944 if I recall my references correctly.

 

Terry may have more to add?  

 

SD

[fastterry]

No SD, you are correct as far as I know. One thing that seems to help Identify a lot of grey 109's and where they were manufactured is the typical camouflage. Images have been posted on here before showing the differences between Mtt, Erla and WNF. The overall green camouflage seems to only have been used by Erla late in the war.

 

TRF 

[dov]

This is an approach, if you consider all a/c as brand new. The damaged ones which were in repair, the old ones to be converted to other versions or beeing upragrated, you forget. The number of this a/c is quite high.

Or even intensive field repairs where done in late war time due to tranport problems.

Happy modelling 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The Dunkelgrün allover painted aircraft are Erla Leipzig built late Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10s and K-4s.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[fernandocouto]

23 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The Dunkelgrün allover painted aircraft are Erla Leipzig built late Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-10s and K-4s.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Look at engine bearer there's no curve for large supercharger on DB605AS or D variants. Also the bare metal "corner" behind engine indicates bulge for MG131 ammo box removed. So the dark one is a G-14 from Erla?

 

Quote

I am sorry if I ask but what is DC,DCM and DMO?

DB is of course Daimler Benz but I never heard of the three other.

The Daimler Benz DB605 engine was built as DB605A,B,AS,D and AM.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/messerschmitt-bf-109-performance-chronology.41004/

 

Not dedicately to engine serials but there are some explaining to airframe variants and corresponding engines

[GiampieroSilvestri]

53 minutes ago, fernandocouto said:

Look at engine bearer there's no curve for large supercharger on DB605AS or D variants. Also the bare metal "corner" behind engine indicates bulge for MG131 ammo box removed. So the dark one is a G-14 from Erla?

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/messerschmitt-bf-109-performance-chronology.41004/

 

Not dedicately to engine serials but there are some explaining to airframe variants and corresponding engines

Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 and G-14 (werknummer 413500 to 413700) and G-14,G-14/AS (werknummer 460300 to 460700 and 461000 to 461999) were built by Erla at Leipzig.🙂

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[fernandocouto]

3 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 and G-14 (werknummer 413500 to 413700) and G-14,G-14/AS (werknummer 460300 to 460700 and 461000 to 461999) were built by Erla at Leipzig.🙂

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

However the dark green fuselage is usually seen on their G-10s, have not met a G-14 with such camo before

[SafetyDad]

And here's another little puzzle

 

 

Courtesy of Marc-Andre Haldimann's Flickr account.

His reference says 'Bf 109 G-6/R2 W.Nr. 230 785 "Gelbe 11", 3./NAGr. 1, Fritzlar, April 1945. Source www. framepool via TOCH Forum'

This image can also be found on Youtube here

 

 

Scroll to 3:30.

 

So here is an example of a Bf109G with the red gear legs. However, unlike others I have seen, this airframe has the standard Beule cowling bulges, so no enlarged  supercharger here. That's new to me, as I thought that only machines with the later DB605 engines would have required the higher octane fuel? If indeed that is what the red gear legs mean (and it's not just an urban myth?).

 

Any thoughts?

 

SD

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

 

Red legs might be for anilline doped B4 fuel, which did not have own code. Luftwaffe did have fuel triangles or similar for A3, B4, C3, 87 octane, 100 octane etc.

 

"...By adding Anilline it is possible to bring a total of 50% of the fuel production up to the equivalent of C3 quality..." The Secret Horsepower Race (Calum Douglas) p. 395.

This was late war emergency solution for the severe lack of C3 fuel.

 

Anilline is red dye (~ pigment), see for example: https://cameo.mfa.org/wiki/Aniline_red#Resources_and_Citations

 

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

PS

Luftwaffe Fuel Names: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=24915

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Kari Lumppio

[SafetyDad]

3 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said:

Hi!

 

Red legs might be for anilline doped B4 fuel, which did not have own code. Luftwaffe did have fuel triangles or similar for A3, B4, C3, 87 octane, 100 octane etc.

 

"...By adding Anilline it is possible to bring a total of 50% of the fuel production up to the equivalent of C3 quality..." The Secret Horsepower Race (Calum Douglas) p. 395.

This was late war emergency solution for the severe lack of C3 fuel.

 

 

This is a very intriguing idea Kari, and it helps make sense (to my mind at least) of these red gear legs.

 

Thanks very much indeed! Every day is a schoolday...

 

SD 

[MDriskill]

Regarding engine types, this chart describing late-war Bf 109 DB 605 variants is in the 2004 JaPo book, Messerschmitt Bf 109s of JG 52 in Deutsch Brod. There was much tinkering to optimize performance, within the limits of available components and fuel:

 

 

Now on to my typical annoying pure speculation, lol... 🙄:

+ Some DB 605 variants could use different combinations of fuel type and MW boost, but others could obtain max power only with C3. Perhaps red gear legs indicated the latter?

+ IMHO we are often too quick to fall back on, '"Oh, near the end they just used whatever parts they could find" to explain seeming anomalies. But that was actually true to some extent in the last few weeks of the war. Some very odd 109's appeared at repair/recycling centers, which were most often sent to training or other second-line units (well documented in a couple of JaPo's more recent books). Which is to say, red gear legs had the potential to appear where not required!

 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by MDriskill

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Looking at the Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 Gelbe 1 has anyone noticed the red stripe under the left wing?

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Looking at the Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 Gelbe 1 has anyone noticed the red stripe under the left wing?

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

Possibly red primer/filler over a joint line.  That particular primer colour (assuming that's what it is) seems to have been fairly prevalent on joins, seams, repairs, etc later in the war..

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Here is a picture of werknummer 230785 taken from the right showing that it is Gelbe 11 and not Gelbe 1.The aircraft was built at Wiener Neustadt.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[SafetyDad]

9 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Here is a picture of werknummer 230785 taken from the right showing that it is Gelbe 11 and not Gelbe 1.The aircraft was built at Wiener Neustadt.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

Thanks Giampero. Also seen in colour on the Youtube video linked above. Scroll to 5:24 or so.

 

16 hours ago, MDriskill said:

Regarding engine types, this chart describing late-war DB 605 variants used in Bf 109's is in the 2004 JaPo book, Messerschmitt Bf 109s of JG 52 in Deutsch Brod. There was much tinkering to optimize performance, within the limits of available components and fuel:

 

 

Now on to my typical annoying pure speculation bit, lol... 🙄:

+ Some DB 605 variants could use different combinations of fuel type and MW boost, but others took only C3. Perhaps red gear legs indicated the latter?

+ IMHO we are often too quick to explain anomalies with the, '"Oh, at the end they just used whatever parts they could find" line. But that was true to an extent in the last few weeks of the war. Some quite odd 109's appeared at repair/recycling centers and training units in particular (well documented in a couple of JaPo's more recent books). Which is to say, red gear legs had the potential to appear where not required.

 

 

Very helpful table for me - that's one JaPo book that I don't have and the engine/fuel clarification presented in this way is great!

+1 for your ideas - especially the recycling centre speculation. 

 

SD

[Tomas Enerdal]

Another enigma with Gelbe 11 is that it has the large, rectangular wing bulges, normally connected with the 660 x 190 wheels (mostly G-10 and K-4 airframes). Yet it seems to have the smaller 660 x 160 wheels.

I doubt it was built that way, this a/c has probably been rebuilt from various components (the combination of an early tail and Erla hood is also odd). If nothing else we have to be vary to make too many conclusions regarding its red legs...

On one hand, if this late G-6 had an AM engine, it could only be run on C3 fuel, according to the JaPo table above. However, J-C Mermet states that an AM engine could be run on B4+MW50 (if MW50 was not available, emergency power was prohibited). if this is so, red legs on a G-6 as built is a no-no. Go figure..

 

Just shows, again, that Bf 109 details are complicated. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Tomas Enerdal