Tamiya Centaur C.S Mk IV

[45DegreesModelling]

Hello everyone, 

 

I’d like to share my Centaur build. I chose this tank because of my Royal Marines connections and I intend to build a diorama to go with it. A lot of you probably know a lot of it’s history but for those that don’t, the RM Armoured Support Group took these ashore on D-Day and cut about Normandy before being pulled back two weeks later. But anyway onto the build:

 

Ive had my eye on eBay for quite a while and when I was able to snatch this kit, I didn’t hesitate. 

 

The obligatory sprue photo…

 

 

I can only find a few photos of the Centaurs but this is the image I’ll loosely be basing my model off.

 

 

Work began on the back plate and the lower hull, the fit is perfect with no gaps and plenty of detail.

 

 

 

I won’t be adding the rest part of the fenders as they’re not visible in the photos that I’ve seen. I’m not too fussed about ultimate accuracy but I think it would be nice to at least replicate the image at a glance.

 

 

Well thanks for reading, this will be my project over Xmas and into the new year and I can’t wait to get cracking with it!

 

Tom

 

[Kingsman]

I know you've fitted them already, but the smoke candle holders on the rear lower hull weren't carried on wadeproofed Centaurs and Cromwells.  Electrics and water.......

 

Hunter from H Tp 2Bty 1RMASR is the most-photographed of the RMASG tanks and one of only a few from the 80 where both name and number are known.  It didn't actually land until pm D+1 with the other survivor from H Tp Right Section, possibly Hood or Howe, and was one of a few RMASG tanks which operated in direct support of troops behind the beaches. H Tp Left Section with the OP Sherman had landed at about 0730 on D Day but all were casualties within minutes.  It is believed that these 2 tanks, now lacking their Troop commander, latched themselves onto forward troops and acted independently rather than finding their parent RA Battery and settling in.  Your picture is probably taken on D+7, 13 June, near Tilly-sur-Seulles SE of Bayeux and W of Caen.  About 20km inland and the furthest point reached by any RMASG asset.

 

The survivors of D Day and those landed late met up with their parent RA batteries and acted as SP artillery as planned.  Some saw no action after D+3, others saw no action until D+4 and the entire unit wasn't landed until D+3 and was stood down on D+14.

 

Stowage on these tanks would have been minimal as they only operated for 14 days and most ended up static in gun positions and doing little.  They were always intended to be SP artillery rather than tanks or an analogue of the StuG and of course were originally not intended to land at all.  Reports after action suggested that was a mistake and that they could have been much better employed as assault guns in direct support.

 

I completed one of these a little while ago if you're interested.  The WIP and RFI are here.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Kingsman
correction

[phildagreek]

That’s a nice kit to build, a Tamiya classic. I built one a while ago & I found the easiest way to decal the turret numbers was to leave off most of the turret fittings, pre paint them & add them after decals & varnish.

[Bullbasket]

Despite it's age, it's still a very good kit and with some work, can produce a very nice model. I've built a few of Tamiya's Cromwells and Centaurs, and always enjoyed the build. This is the finished article of the Centaur.

  

 

Enjoy your build.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

I wasn't going to mention the turret decals yet.........

 

But I echo @Bullbasket's comments.  They don't actually fit very well.  Make sure you trim the carrier film off the top edges of the graduations flush with the tops of the markings before wetting.  Leave off the 4 lifting eyes and the spotlamp until after the decals are applied.  The holes in the decals for the moulded-on turret bolts are slightly out of place and need to be opened-out by about 1mm to the rear.  Again, best done before wetting.  You will need lots of your favourite decal softening and setting products for the pistol port decals and to prevent silvering under the extensive backing film.

 

Colour remains controversial.  All the RMASG tanks would have been built in the SCC2 period.  The only A27s built in the SCC15 period were the 400+ Final Specification Battle Cromwells needed for D Day.  Tanks for D Day were intended to be SCC15 or OD, but there is debate as to whether the instructions mandated this or simply authorised it.  The colour pictures of Assegai and Ashanti remain hotly debated green vs brown because of the unreliable colour film of the day.  Monochrome doesn't help as SCC2 was formulated to have a similar reflectance to Khaki Green and Olive Drab.  As RMASG was not originally intended to land there would have been no reason to repaint, and once the decision to land had been made the tempo of tactical training would not have permitted it.  However, over on WW2Talk it is said that Centaurs were fitted with SCC15 wading gear as this had been produced for Cromwells and was in any case produced after SCC2 has been superseded.  Which makes sense.

 

Centaurs were rivetted and therefore dry-jointed.  Cromwells fitted for wading were internally seam-welded to help seal them.  But the Centaurs were not.  So the black/grey Bostik sealant was applied externally to all the rivetted joins on the hull.  I don't know about the engine deck: although there is a trunk on the exhaust and radiator air outlet there is no trunk on the air inlet behind the turret like Shermans had, which is odd. I didn't do my engine deck but with hindsight maybe I should have as wading to at least that depth was clearly envisaged.  Although it seems that the Centaurs were easily drowned, with 3 whole Troops suffering this fate.

[45DegreesModelling]

23 hours ago, Kingsman said:

I wasn't going to mention the turret decals yet.........

 

But I echo @Bullbasket's comments.  They don't actually fit very well.  Make sure you trim the carrier film off the top edges of the graduations flush with the tops of the markings before wetting.  Leave off the 4 lifting eyes and the spotlamp until after the decals are applied.  The holes in the decals for the moulded-on turret bolts are slightly out of place and need to be opened-out by about 1mm to the rear.  Again, best done before wetting.  You will need lots of your favourite decal softening and setting products for the pistol port decals and to prevent silvering under the extensive backing film.

 

Colour remains controversial.  All the RMASG tanks would have been built in the SCC2 period.  The only A27s built in the SCC15 period were the 400+ Final Specification Battle Cromwells needed for D Day.  Tanks for D Day were intended to be SCC15 or OD, but there is debate as to whether the instructions mandated this or simply authorised it.  The colour pictures of Assegai and Ashanti remain hotly debated green vs brown because of the unreliable colour film of the day.  Monochrome doesn't help as SCC2 was formulated to have a similar reflectance to Khaki Green and Olive Drab.  As RMASG was not originally intended to land there would have been no reason to repaint, and once the decision to land had been made the tempo of tactical training would not have permitted it.  However, over on WW2Talk it is said that Centaurs were fitted with SCC15 wading gear as this had been produced for Cromwells and was in any case produced after SCC2 has been superseded.  Which makes sense.

 

Centaurs were rivetted and therefore dry-jointed.  Cromwells fitted for wading were internally seam-welded to help seal them.  But the Centaurs were not.  So the black/grey Bostik sealant was applied externally to all the rivetted joins on the hull.  I don't know about the engine deck: although there is a trunk on the exhaust and radiator air outlet there is no trunk on the air inlet behind the turret like Shermans had, which is odd. I didn't do my engine deck but with hindsight maybe I should have as wading to at least that depth was clearly envisaged.  Although it seems that the Centaurs were easily drowned, with 3 whole Troops suffering this fate.

Wow, thank you for your insight. I’d seen your posts before while doing my research. I’m not going to try and get too bogged down in details but your knowledge is invaluable, thank you.

 

On 10/12/2022 at 10:30, Bullbasket said:

Despite it's age, it's still a very good kit and with some work, can produce a very nice model. I've built a few of Tamiya's Cromwells and Centaurs, and always enjoyed the build. This is the finished article of the Centaur.

  

 

Enjoy your build.

 

John.

John, that looks fantastic, I’m going to try post shading with this one so all being well it comes out half as good as yours!

 

On 10/12/2022 at 09:27, phildagreek said:

That’s a nice kit to build, a Tamiya classic. I built one a while ago & I found the easiest way to decal the turret numbers was to leave off most of the turret fittings, pre paint them & add them after decals & varnish.

I had seen that advice been given before, thank you for reminding me!

[45DegreesModelling]

Well not much of a model update but this weekend I’ve been fortunate enough to to be part of a battlefield tour around Normandy. 
 

Well I only went and asked the tour guide if we could stop at Pegasus Bridge for a look at the Centaur! He was happy to oblige 😄
 

 

Unfortunately I could only get a photo from the road as the tank is in the museum grounds and we were rushing. But it was great to see the Centaur in person. I can’t wait to get home and continue building now! 
 

Tom

[Bullbasket]

Be very careful with some of these "replicas". I think if I remember correctly, that "Centaur" is Vidette, and from what I've read, it's no such thing. It was cobbled together using a Centaur recovery vehicle and various bits and pieces from various tanks. I can't find the info at the moment, but I do remember coming across it when I built my 1/48th scale Centaur a few years ago.

 

John.

[45DegreesModelling]

Just a small update on the Centaur… I’ve managed to get it 90% complete. As per phildagreek’s suggestion, I’ll be leaving some of the turret fittings off to help with the decals. 
 

 

I added a PE grill as it looked considerably better that the mesh supplied… although the additional grills that also came with the PE are redundant and are going into the spares stash!

 

 

The hatches are open as I’ll be attempting to paint figures for the first time ever too!

 

 

All the wheels are removable ready for painting and weathering too.
 

 

Thanks for looking, hopefully this cold snap goes and I can get back to the bench in the garage again! 
 

Tom

[Kingsman]

I concluded that the only way the wading coaming fitted around the loader's hatch was if the hatch locks were removed.  The objects to the right front and left rear of the hatches.   I copied my parts from Accurate Armour's etched brass pieces, but their instructions appear to show the coaming sat on the locks with a gap beneath. Clearly not the case.  But if it was made wide enough to go round the locks then it wouldn't clear the antenna base to the right rear of the hatch or the PLM mount base between the hatches.  And inside the coaming on the left side was another plate whose purpose seemed to be to hold the hatches at 90 degrees inside the coaming. Necessary with no locks.

 

Centaur IVs were built on both Type C hulls with sloping front trackguards and Type D hulls with flat front trackguards, as per the kit. RMASG had both. The Type D hulls had the Cromwell style track adjusters with the "hockey stick" handle stowed on the engine deck side, and did not have the round bosses on the glacis covering the Crusader-style adjusters. The kit instructions are not clear on this point 

[45DegreesModelling]

Another Centaur update;

 

I finally completed the build and I have to say the fitting is spot on for this model considering it’s an old kit.

 

 

The primer went down beautifully, I used Mr Finishing Surfacer 1500 black mixed 50/50 with the Mr Colour leveling thinner.

 

 

As these tanks were pretty rubbish, they apparently spent their time in storage or were used for training before D-Day and therefore remained in the SCC#2 colour. The mix I used was 5 parts XF68 (NATO Brown), 4 parts XF3 (Flat yellow) and 1 part XF1 (Black).

 

I mottled on the first and second coat as I had great results with the Messerschmitt BF109 earlier in the year using this technique.
 

 

I then gave it a third coat, careful to keep some shading.

 

 

Then something strange happened, the paint seemed to dry patchy in places, Ive no idea why as I haven’t done anything out of the ordinary in my painting process… perhaps the cold maybe? 
 

 

Regardless, I came back the next day and gave it a wet coat, which unfortunately covered up the majority of the shading and subtle mottling, this seemed to do the trick, although these strange patches are ever so visible. I’m sure the weathering will cover them up. 
 

I then added a couple drops of XF1 to the SCC#2 mix to darken it and add some

artificial shadows. The photo doesn’t do it justice but it looks really satisfying to the eye.

 

 

Next up will be to add some Shader by Ammo to further enhance the shadows and set the foundation for any oil stains or grime.

 

Thanks for reading if you got this far and Merry Christmas.

 

Tom

[nheather]

Always loved the Centaur, I have one in my stash so will follow this thread with interest.

 

One thing that I’ve never been convinced by is the colour - the Tamiya kit calls out for SCC2 which is usually depicted like RAF Dark Earth but in reality is a much darker chocolate colour.  But when I look at existing examples and photos they all look more like SCC15 - althoug( I admit that it is difficult to tell from black and white photos.

 

I did ask a curator about SCC2 once when I visited the tank museum (Bovington) but he was unable to show me any examples of SCC2.

 

I’m going to paint mine in the ‘dark earth’ colour because I like the way it looks but I remain unconvinced about what colour the Centaurs actually were.

 

The story behind the SCC2 scheme was that was the colour being used before SCC15 was introduced and as the Centaurs were going to remain on the beach / landing craft for fire support (hence the bearing markings on the turret) there was no point repainting them in SCC15.  But the crews chose to take them inland.  But still doesn’t gel with me, because I can’t say that I have seen any tanks that were ever painted in all over SCC2.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, nheather said:

 

I did ask a curator about SCC2 once when I visited the tank museum (Bovington) but he was unable to show me any examples of SCC2

 

this maybe of interest

  

On 22/09/2011 at 20:54, Mike Starmer said:

'The museum painted vehicles and artwork in books are not accurate, which is why they look so different.'

Quite so. Some years ago I was at Bovington watching their painter outside applying markings to their brown Churchill. The colour was brown but not SCC 2. I asked how they went about deciding the colour of this exhibit. The reply? Well we were told they were sort of dark brown so we went to B&Q and found something that we thought about right. There was no need to guess, they have a copy of BS.987C in their archive. But colour is not important to the staff there and no one it appears is interested enough to bother. They do however have copies of my books.

On the subject of mixes. One of the problems of using model paints is that they are all mixtures to start with. So when setting out to create a new mix one has to select a possible suitable base colour and then find something which will achieve the desired result keeping in mind that some colours may have a tint of a strong primary colour in them in small undetectable amounts that will throw off the resulting mix. Greys in particular are never neutrals they always have something else in them which messes up the resulting mix. Blue is a colour which needs careful use as the primary pigment can be iron oxide (Prussian Blue) which is green or Ultramarine which is yellow. What ever you add to them is going to be biased either way. Reds are purple or yellow based too.

 

2 hours ago, nheather said:

because I can’t say that I have seen any tanks that were ever painted in all over SCC2.

It was the standard military vehicle colour from 1942-44,  it came into use because of the shortage of green pigments, which were reserved for the RAF,  SCC2 used a brown pigment leftover from aluminium production which was available. 

I'm pretty sure some were overall SCC2.

 

 Looking at the thread I took @Mike Starmer quote from, I now see you were posting in that one as well.... 

This is from the IWM, a Churchill in SCC2 brown with ACC14 disruptive

 

 

[Peter2]

I'm a little disappointed that a museum would use a form of 'guesswork' or subjective belief when choosing the colour scheme for their tanks. Down with that sort of thing! 👩‍🎓

[Geo1966]

The Centaur is looking great Tom, keep up the good work.

 

George

[Bullbasket]

The Centaur is looking very good. Even though it is quite old now, Tamiya's Cromwell/Centaur kits are still very good.

Here's a photo of one of the early Centaurs, probably based on a C type hull. From what I can remember about this photo, it's supposed to have been taken after it went ashore, and is in SCC15, but I'd be a little wary of that. Just look at how the the red has come out in the red/white marking on the front of the hull.

 

Also, if you think that it was a bit slap dash of the Tank Museum's staff when painting the Churchill, then have a look at the Saumur's Centaur. What the.....!

 

 

Merry Christmas.

 

John.

[nheather]

22 hours ago, Peter2 said:

I'm a little disappointed that a museum would use a form of 'guesswork' or subjective belief when choosing the colour scheme for their tanks. Down with that sort of thing! 👩‍🎓

I had quite a chat with the curator at Bovington a few years back.  He advised me not to use the exhibits as references for correct colours because, unfortunately, when restored the job was often given to cadets using whatever paint was available in the storeroom.  He admitted this was very much the practice in the 70s, 80s and 90s but said that, fortunately, there is more effort to research and get the colours right.

 

Even so, he admitted that the colours of many of the exhibits were wrong - and that possibly the only way to tell the correct colour would be to remove tool boxes to see if the original colour was still underneath.

 

I have since revisited recently, and noticed that a number of their exhibits have been repainted more accurately, such as the infamous Matilda which now sports an accurate caunter, and the pink panther.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[nheather]

On 12/24/2022 at 10:31 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

this maybe of interest

  

 

It was the standard military vehicle colour from 1942-44,  it came into use because of the shortage of green pigments, which were reserved for the RAF,  SCC2 used a brown pigment leftover from aluminium production which was available. 

I'm pretty sure some were overall SCC2.

 

 Looking at the thread I took @Mike Starmer quote from, I now see you were posting in that one as well.... 

This is from the IWM, a Churchill in SCC2 brown with ACC14 disruptive

 

 

Thanks for this, very useful.  Shows SCC2 as a chocolate brown much as Starmer describes rather than the Dark Earth that is commonly used on models.

 

What I do find strange though is that given that SCC2 was the standard colour for 1942 to 1944 (3 years) it is extremely rare to find any photos of tanks painted in that colour.

 

I wonder whether this is because the fighting by the British Army was in North Africa and Italy during that time so we’re using the desert schemes.

 

So could it be that only those tanks reserved for home defence or serving in training units were painted in SCC2 - plus those arriving from the US, Sherman’s, Stuart’s, Grants, etc., would have been in Olive Drab and would have been left that way, or repainted if being deployed to North Africa.

 

So the only tanks painted in SCC2 would have been locally built (like the Churchill, Matilda and Centaur) and then only if they were serving in the UK.  By the time that D-Day came around the UK had switched to SCC15 so any new tanks were painted in that (I still wonder whether the US stuff would have actually been US Olive Drab or SCC15, seems pointless to repaint with practically the same colour or were the US manufacturers instructed to use SCC15).  The question is whether the Centaurs were left in SCC2, repainted in SCC15 or a mixture.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Bullbasket]

A good example of tanks in SCC2 are the photos (albeit in monochrome) of units of the Czech Independent Armoured Brigade Group, training in the UK, probably around 1943. In the book that I have on the brigade, there are many photos of Crusaders.

 

John.

[PF Naughton]

Hi,

The Centaur was a fascinating tank.  Can't wait to see more of your build.

 

[45DegreesModelling]

Thank you everyone for your kind words. I’m really enjoying this build. It seems the paint is a contentious issue as I thought it would be!

 

So after my last update where I said I was going to add the shader, I decided to do the highlights first… I took the original mix and added buff with a 80/20 mix respectively. I sprayed all the panels and in general areas where you would expect highlights. Once this was dry, I added some more buff and sparingly sprayed on some more exposed areas to further add contrast.

 

 

Then it was time for the shader from Ammo. I really like this product and again, used it sparingly around the exhaust and where natural shadows would occur. Sorry for the below photo, it doesn’t do the shader justice.

 

 

 

I gave the wheels a bit of the shader treatment too after some highlights. I then used Humbrol matt black to finish painting the wheels.

 

 

Then it was time for some X22 clear before the decals… and disaster. The same thing as before happened with the blotches but this time I watched them appear before my eyes.

 

 

It must have been down to the cold and the paint not drying perhaps? I was giving it 24 hours between coats and bringing the model into the house as well. Unsure what to do I just decided to blast the model with X22 again, and I mean blast! This did the trick and I gave it a good 36 hours before the decals.

 

I really hate decalling as I just know it’s the area of the model where I’ll most likely mess up after hours of work… but this time I seemed to enjoy it. The decals around the turret were cheeky and I’m glad I left some parts off to make life easy. But with plenty of micro Set and Sol, they conformed beautifully.

 

 

 

After these photos were taken I sealed the decals in with some more X22. 
 

This brings the painting to an end before I can finally begin the weathering! 
 

Thanks for reading,

 

Tom

 

[neilspen]

Great work so far. I think the colour looks ok, personal opinion based on no facts whatsoever. If you are happy with it, then you have acieved what you set out to do. Looking forward to see the progress with weathering.

[45DegreesModelling]

22 minutes ago, neilspen said:

Great work so far. I think the colour looks ok, personal opinion based on no facts whatsoever. If you are happy with it, then you have acieved what you set out to do. Looking forward to see the progress with weathering.

Thank you, Im happy with the colour. I’m more content with the post shading to be honest as that was the aim for this model!

[Geo1966]

The paintwork looks great Tom. Might have to add one of these to my wishlist.......

 

George

[Bullbasket]

Nice work Tom. Even with your problems with the varnish, it still looked good in the photos, but now that the decals have gone on, it looks great. Good job.

 

John.