HMS Cochrane

[ArnoldAmbrose]

       Gidday All, I've said on a few occasions that I have trouble concentrating on more than one ship build at a time so I try not to start a new model until the previous build is complete. Group builds however sometimes make that difficult. GBs on the ATF even more so in that they usually have a two month duration, and another has just started there, their annual Whiff GB. So despite my build of HMAS Vampire II incomplete I've started this model, a conversion of the Airfix HMS Nelson kit.

       As you might be aware, the Nelson class when built were unusual in that their entire main armament of nine 16-inch guns was mounted in three triple turrets, all sited forward of the superstructure. This was due to the constraints imposed by the Washington Treaty of 1922. My build here will have the main armament in the more traditional arrangement of two turrets forward and one aft. Similar models have been done here before, one that I can think of was by @Chris Hewitt just over two years ago and I'm gaining inspiration from his model. But I intend mine to differ a little.

       I've decided to name the ship HMS Cochrane, after Thomas Cochrane who attained the rank of Admiral of the Red and also received the honorary title of 'Rear Admiral of the United Kingdom'. I believe he was the inspiration for Patrick O'Brien's Jack Aubrey in his Aubrey/Maturin series of books.

 

Anyway, here's the traditional photo of box art and kit parts.

 

        As I've said earlier I intend to build her with two turrets forward and one aft. But I think there's more to it than simply moving the superstructure up to 'B' turret and plonking 'Y' turret on the deck behind it. I believe the third turret would be too far aft with insufficient hull buoyancy below it to support the weight of it. Plus the extremely short quarterdeck would look very odd. I've got more photos on Flickr but they're not uploading at present so I'll call it quits here tonight and see if the system plays the game tomorrow.

       So stay safe and regards to all, Jeff.

 

 

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Looks like we're back in business. As I said above, I think there's more to it than simply moving the superstructure up to 'B' turret and plonking 'Y' turret on the deck behind it. That's what I've demonstrated on the kit deck in the middle above. In front of it is more like what I'm thinking of doing, moving the turrets and superstructure further forward. I earlier thought maybe about 25mm but that might be too much - I've been comparing this with the profiles of HMS KGV and the US North Carolina, South Dakota and Iowa classes. 15mm might be better.

 

       I've decided to get the main turrets done first, to make it easier to visualize the placement of the superstructure. And they need a bit of work:-

       The turret on the left is from another kit, to show what I started with. The obvious issue is with the gun slots in the face of the turret. In a word - 'rough'. And some were even worse. ☹ The range-finders are too deep (the full depth of the turret) and don't extend far enough out from the turret sides. The operators wouldn't be able to see past the turret shoulders. And another issue, from line drawings I don't think they're deep enough.
       My first mod isn't visible yet, I glued 4.8mm tubing over the existing rotating pins. Actually 4mm, then 4.8mm over that. This is so I can do my usual keyway and slot method of fitting the turrets to the model later. Then I glued the turrets to 1mm thick styrene sheeting. Next was to make better turret faces with 0.25mm x 6.3mm strip, drilled, slotted, glued then trimmed the turret all round, including the sides. I decided to remove the existing range-finders completely.
       To fit new range-finders I cut a slot 2.5mm wide and 1.5mm deep right across the turret (2nd turret from the left). The rangefinders will be 1mm deep but as the turret roof was 1mm also I cut the slot deeper to make a clean bottom edge to the cuts.
       The next turret has a strip glued inside the cut, 0.5mm deep. When the glue dried it was trimmed and sanded flush with the sides of the turret. And the right turret has the range-finder fitted. it's made from 1mm x 2.5mm strip, 22mm long. Because the turret roof is slightly domed it'll need a bit of filler in the middle later. Plus, naturally, the guns themselves will be added too.
       In addition you can see some of the re-inforcing I've done to the hull join, and the screw holes for later screwing the model to a handling block of wood, my usual practice now. I also plan to re-arrange the secondary turrets but not just yet.

       Well, that's it for now. Thank you for your interest. Stay safe and regards to all, Jeff.

[Modelholic]

Are you going to do as built of WW2 fit?

Have you any thoughts about the height of the bridge superstructure? Moving the whole thing forward means (i think0 it could be lower. If you draw a line in a side profile drawing from the bridge to the extreme point of the bow and then position the superstructure where 'Q' (?) turret is you'll see what I mean (I hope).

Tom

[ArnoldAmbrose]

15 hours ago, Modelholic said:

Are you going to do as built of WW2 fit?

       Gidday Tom, both Nelson class ships were commissioned in late 1927 AFAIK. In the story that goes with this model on the ATF GB I'm stating that she was built five years later than those two, so I can use as much of the kit as possible ie separate secondary and heavy AA guns and not have to worry about DP guns that many later ships were fitted with. I might date the model in early/mid WW2 and add more light weapons because they're useful for covering blemishes in my workmanship, cut and joins in decks etc. 😁 I don't want to have to add too much in the way of radar etc. I'm also a little pushed for time. I already have another build on the go and another GB starts here in early January that I want to do, the Salty Seadog GB so I don't want to get too bogged down with this. Sometime in the future I want to do a twelve gun version of this, USS Montana style, and I can really go to town with that one. 🙂 But that's probably quite a way off at present.

       I've cut up and rearranged a line drawing of the ship to see what she'll look like. I think she'll look OK, a bit more balanced than the other two so I probably won't play around with the superstructure height but my plans have been known to change from time to time. We'll see.

       Regards, Jeff.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

       Gidday All, I haven't had much time on this today although I've done one very minor, almost insignificant mod, hardly worth mentioning - I've shortened the foc'sle deck. I said in an earlier post that I think I'll move the turrets and superstructure forward by about 15mm. And I decided to 'move' them by shortening the foc'sle deck ahead of them so as to retain all the deck fittings plus not have to butcher the turret barbettes or it's attendant breakwater.

       On the lower hull deck in the photo you can see where I've cut and rejoined the deck just in front of 'A' turret. You can also see the piece I've removed. The other hull deck is from another kit obviously, and I'll be using it as a template to reshape this build's deck. I've re-inforced the join underneath but still have to clean it up a bit.
       I've completed the main turrets and have made a pair of screws for the model, the kit screws are rather pitiful. But I'll show them in a later photo.
So that's it for now. Thank you for your interest. Stay safe, and regards, Jeff.

[Bertie McBoatface]

Very interesting.  

 

What is ATF please?

[ArnoldAmbrose]

3 hours ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

What is ATF please?

Gidday Bertie  -  The Airfix Tribute Forum  -  it's another modeling forum that I post on.       Regards, Jeff.

[stevehnz]

12 hours ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

Very interesting.  

 

What is ATF please?

This one.

@ArnoldAmbrose Jeff, I like what you're doing with this, I've an old Nelson kit I built probably 50+ years ago tucked away & have thought for a bit now that with a KG.V kit I could bodge a Lion out of them, your turret improvements would be most useful for that. The fly in the ointment of course are KG.V kits, a bit unobtainium around here.

Keep up with the good work,

Steve.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

6 hours ago, stevehnz said:

The fly in the ointment of course are KG.V kits, a bit unobtainium around here.

Gidday Steve, although it pains me to use foul language on the forum, have you looked "on line" (I'll wash my mouth out. 😫)

Not much available in Airfix ships over here now either. I've got one KGV kit left, I bought it as a fall back some years ago while I could still get one. And yeah, a Lion class is an option for it as I've got a few more Nelsons too, again bought while I had the chance. Hopefully a KGV will pop up your way sometime in the future.

Regards, Jeff.

 

[stevehnz]

7 minutes ago, ArnoldAmbrose said:

have you looked "on line"

It's where I spend far too much of my time according to her indoors.   

I'll bide my time on the KG.V, something'll turn up if I'm patient, they normally do.  

Steve

[ArnoldAmbrose]

       Gidday All, I've reshaped the forward section of HMS Cochrane's upper deck using another kit's deck as a guide, and razed it abaft the turrets. I was thinking of cutting the deck across, behind 'C' turret and flipping the aft deck section upside down instead of razing it but ultimately decided against that idea. I'll have to cut it at some point and insert a 15mm section but I'll decide where later. Currently the deck is the length of a USS South Dakota class battleship which were thirty feet shorter than these ships.

       I used a razor saw and razor blade to remove the molded on superstructure bulkheads and 6-inch turret barbettes. I may have to remove 'C' turret barbette too. The job is a bit rough, still needs cleaning up a bit. But first I think I'll have to plug the holes in the deck, both those made by the 6-inch barbette's removal and all those little holes for fitting items that now have to be re-sited. Easier to do it now while the deck is still free.
       Included in the photo are the screws I've made but they probably won't be fitted until much later. Also I've slotted the two forward barbettes and added keyways to the trunks of those turrets. Plus I've filled in the tops of the turrets above the range-finders although it's not very evident in this photo. Instead of filling in the gap I mentioned in an earlier post with filler I glued another strip of styrene (0.5mm thick) into the gap and then trimmed it to the shape/curve of the turret roof, before adding a touch of filler and sanding them smooth. This was so I could glue items to the tops of the turrets later, such as Carley floats or AA guns. They may not have glued to the filler very well.
       You may have noticed some bits of scrap styrene glued to the inside of the hull, just under the upper deck level. This is to assist in fitting the upper deck later. The existing lip for the deck is not very prominent and when I tried to dry-fit the deck it kept popping into the hull. So I thought these might help.
       Well, that's it for now. Besides this build I'm trying to still make headway on my other, HMAS Vampire II (a blatant free plug 😁), so progress isn't as far as it should by now. Oh well  .   .   .   so thank you for your interest, stay safe and regards, Jeff.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday All, I've been cleaning up the deck of HMS Cochrane.

       The previous photo showed six great holes in the deck where I removed the 6-inch barbettes. These will have to be filled. As luck will have it, I have some heavy sprue which although not EXACTLY round is close enough and fits said holes quite snuggly. So, as you can see I glue it into a hole and when the glue is dry I saw it off with a fine razor saw, then file the under surface flat. Why, when it won't be seen? As you can see I've also glued some scrap flat styrene under the holes to re-inforce my plugs. The scrap is from an Airfix ship stand, which I don't use. I don't want the plugs to fall out later. Since this photo was taken I've completed all six plugs, plus I've also plugged all the small holes in the deck too. Tomorrow I plan to complete the cleaning up of the upper surface of the deck.

       Behind the deck I've been working on you can see I've also been planning what I'll do regarding the secondary 6-inch turrets. I think I'll have them all at one level, Bismarck style and not superimposed like the other two half-sisters. But I've cut some taller barbettes in case I change my mind.

       I'm also thinking of removing that protrusion in front of the Queen Anne's Mansion - the bridge structure. The base of it was an armoured conning position I think. Originally it had an armoured range finder mounted on top of it but this appears to have been removed and light AA guns sited there instead. However, with 'C' turret moved down aft the AA guns on the crown of 'B' turret will now obstruct the forward firing arcs of these others, plus they  could cause blast issues to the crew of the AA guns in front of them. I think I'll just remove the whole lot. That'll give me a bit more room for the superstructure and 6-inch turrets to fit. And I'm considering a couple of options for the heavy AA guns. Instead of the six single 4.7-inch guns I'm thinking of four twin 4-inch if I can source them.

       Anyway, I think this'll do for tonight. Thank you for your interest and responses. Stay safe and regards to all, Jeff.

[beefy66]

Interesting concept Jeff looking forward to seeing more.  👍

 

Stay Safe

beefy

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Thanks Beefy.

 And gidday All. Since the previous post things have changed a little. For starters I've lengthened the upper deck back to it's original length. You can see the white insert. Everything else you see here is dry-fitted at present.

       I've completed the turrets, except for misc equipment added to them such as rafts, light AA guns etc. 'Y' turret has it's barbette now, plus the keyway. The shelter deck has been altered a bit, narrowed up forward and widened down aft, and the bulkheads added under it. It's also been lengthened very slightly. And I've decided to retain the conning tower and the AA guns mounted on it.
       After some consideration I've decided to only fit four twin 6-inch turrets, where you can see them. I've also decided to retain the 4.7-inch guns, and in fact add another two. I'll elaborate more on them at a later date.
       Well, that's it for now, got more plastic to butcher. And I think I can start slapping paint on the hull soon. So until then, thank you for your interest, stay safe and regards, Jeff.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday all, here's my next update on HMS Cochrane. I've slapped the first bit of paint on.

       The upper hull and weather deck still need more paint. The shelter deck is dry fitted at present but is in it's exact place. You can see that 'Y' barbette isn't attached yet, I'll do that after painting, as I will the 6-inch barbettes. That's them in the foreground. That's not the final length of the shafts, they'll be shortened before fitting. I made them that long to fit them into the drill chuck, to file/sand them circular.
       To widen the aft half of the shelter deck I chopped up some kit display stands, for a number of reasons. It helps the build to comply with the 51% Airfix plastic rule on the ATF, they were free-of-charge, and they were the correct thickness to match the existing shelter deck, slightly over 1mm thick. You can see some off cuts in the foreground. The bulkheads under the shelter deck have been busied up a little, with some door hatches glued on (a few are visible here) plus quite a few scuttles drilled out (not very noticeable). I've also glued on the bases for the eight 4.7-inch AA guns I'll be fitting.
       I said that I plan to fit only four of the twin 6-inch turrets. They're dry fitted into their positions in the photo, minus their barbettes. The forward pair of turrets are inboard a little to allow the after turrets finer firing arcs off the bow, because I believe fast torpedo-carrying vessels are more likely to attack from ahead. The reason I'm going with four turrets only is to save weight. The design of the Nelson class was primarily dictated by weight saving measures to comply with the 35,000 ton limit imposed by the Washington Treaty. By placing the turrets together it reduced the area needing heavy armour, allowing it to be thicker. This design of HMS Cochrane has the turrets spread out to lessen the chance of one or two hits by heavy shells or torpedoes knocking out most of the guns. This exacerbates the weight saving issues however, so either the armour had to be thinner because of the larger area, or weight saved elsewhere. Understating the true displacement of the ship wasn't an option, it just "wouldn't be cricket"! So I've chosen to drop two 6-inch turrets. But do you think I'm being too parsimonious, and should fit all six turrets?
       Well, that's it for now. Thank you for your interest. Stay safe, and regards, Jeff.

[Courageous]

That recent top pic looks rather impressive. Good work Jeff.

 

Stuart

[TallBlondJohn]

Fit all 6 six inch. 4 a side is basically useless, and the turret layout presumes a higher tonnage limit anyway. Or you could do a refitted version with 4.5" or 5.25"?

[ArnoldAmbrose]

7 hours ago, TallBlondJohn said:

Fit all 6 six inch. 4 a side is basically useless, and the turret layout presumes a higher tonnage limit anyway. Or you could do a refitted version with 4.5" or 5.25"?

Gidday TBJ, you could be right. HMS Warspite shipped four 6-inch guns per side but that was after her extensive rebuild, and AFAIK she was the only ship to do so. All the others either carried a DP battery or retained six guns per side, as did the 'R' class. As far as weight goes I think the Nelson class were about 1500 tons under weight so I've got a bit of leeway there.

       For this model I hadn't planned on a DP battery, partly to avoid too extensive a rebuild (time limitations) and I don't have any of the 4.5 or 5.25 turrets available. Yeah, I think I'll reconsider using all six secondary turrets for this model. Thanks for your suggestion.       Regards, Jeff.

[longshanks]

On 14/12/2022 at 11:43, ArnoldAmbrose said:

and should fit all six turrets?

 Go for it.....

It is portraying a WHIFF 

 

Stay safe

 

Kev

[TallBlondJohn]

12 hours ago, ArnoldAmbrose said:

Gidday TBJ, you could be right. HMS Warspite shipped four 6-inch guns per side but that was after her extensive rebuild, and AFAIK she was the only ship to do so. All the others either carried a DP battery or retained six guns per side, as did the 'R' class. As far as weight goes I think the Nelson class were about 1500 tons under weight so I've got a bit of leeway there.

       For this model I hadn't planned on a DP battery, partly to avoid too extensive a rebuild (time limitations) and I don't have any of the 4.5 or 5.25 turrets available. Yeah, I think I'll reconsider using all six secondary turrets for this model. Thanks for your suggestion.       Regards, Jeff.

 

At the rate you whiff a 5.25" scratch build production line might be worthwhile - maybe try your own resin casting? 

[ArnoldAmbrose]

7 hours ago, TallBlondJohn said:

a 5.25" scratch build production line might be worthwhile - maybe try your own resin casting? 

Gidday TBJ, I've never tried resin casting although I've seen others do it on the forums very well. Perhaps I should try it sometime.

       Your comment yesterday has got me thinking/planning (dangerous😁). I won't alter this build as such but this kit I think would be very good for converting into a RN version of the USS North Carolina or South Dakota classes but with the turrets you mention. I'd probably fit 5.25s to the NC type but 4.5s to the SD type, leaning towards the latter. I think I've got another KGV kit for a HMS Lion conversion with 5.25s hence my leaning towards the SD with the 4.5s - variety in the display cabinet. 

       But I think I'd better get this build and my other build completed first. You and Kev above have convinced me to fit all of the 6-inch turrets. In fact I've already drilled the holes in the deck for the barbettes so I'm pretty much committed now. And I think it would look better and more likely. Thanks.

       Regards, Jeff.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday All, HMS Cochrane now has her hull painted - almost. A bit of touching up to do.

The colours are a bit brighter than I planned, especially the light blue. It appears to have a bit of a greenish hue to it. I've found that often now with Humbrol enamels what appears on the lid sometimes differs a little with what's in the tin, and again differs a little in appearance when applied to plastic. Oh well, I'll go with her as she is. The kit hull has good lines on it marking the boot topping but despite that I had trouble seeing them when I applied the masking tape. When I peeled the tape off I found that I'd missed the lines in some places. But it LOOKS straight so again I'll go with what I've got.
       The light blue is Humbrol Hu89, the darker blue is Hu109, the grey is Hu79, antifouling is Hu73 and in an earlier post the wood deck is Hu94. At this stage I plan on using Hu67 for the superstructure decks. It's darker than Hu79.
       My next task I think is to attach the two shafts and rudder, and paint them. After that I think the hull deck needs to be fitted. So until then, thank you for your interest.

Stay safe and regards to all, Jeff.

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday All, HMS Cochrane has her shafts fitted.

       I've used the kit shafts although not the struts (legs). The instructions would have you fit the shafts the other way around with that thick bit (which I think should be the strut bearing) at the forward end as the shaft enters the hull (the shaft bearing I think). Although I did just that on my original OOB build many years ago I don't think this is correct. I also think the strut bearings are too long but I decided not to alter them.
       The struts themselves were rather mediocre and somewhat chunky so I replaced them with styrene strip. There's one set of struts on the wood block. To support the shafts while the struts were gluing I first replaced the pins at the end of the shafts with longer 0.75mm styrene rod then I made that jig from breakfast cereal box cardboard. Once the styrene cement had set I reinforced all glued joins and filled the holes in the hull with PVA glue. The extended pins will be shortened and I'll glue on the rudder once the cardboard jig is removed. I did this job after the hull painting as I've found that masking the hull for the boot topping easier if the shafts, struts and rudder(s) aren't in the way.
       Well that's it for now. Thank you for your comments, responses and interest. Stay safe, and regards to all, Jeff.

[Ngantek]

Hey Jeff, sorry I've been lurking this thread, having not much constructive to add, other than to say cracking work so far! Really interesting idea and I like very much how you've approached it. I guess it's a necessity to get comfortable with this kind of hull surgery if you work in 600 scale, but it doesn't make it any less impressive (or scary given the increasing rarity of some of the kits!). Lovely work so far, enjoying seeing it take shape!

Cheers,

Andy

[ArnoldAmbrose]

1 hour ago, Ngantek said:

sorry I've been lurking this thread, having not much constructive to add,

Gidday Andy, no need to apologize, it's flattering that you simply look.

       Some of my earlier efforts at ship surgery were rather basic, I guess over time we learn new techniques, what might work and what might not, and become braver/bolder/more reckless 😁. Yeah, some of these kits I haven't seen in the shops here for quite some time, and I'm not into buying on-line. I bought a few of these years ago when they were more available and have some more whiffs in mind. And while Airfix kits can be basic and even crude by some standards they were also relatively cheap, so not so much of a loss if I botch a conversion. And a botched conversion can often be converted into a whiff. My first attempt at the destroyer HMS Hardy became HMS Igraine. This build was intended as a whiff right from the start, and as I like them to be plausible (in my mind anyway) it gets the grey matter ticking over which for me is part of the enjoyment.

      Thank you for your interest and comment. Regards, Jeff.