RAF Phantom question

[Gisbod]

Hi,

 

I’m thinking of getting the latest Tamiya Phantom F4-B in 1/48, is it feasible to make this into an RAF -4M? Any conversion sets? Or are the differences too much? 
 

thanks,

 

Guy

[cmatthewbacon]

No. No. Yes.

 

One day, you might be able to make an RAF F-4J(UK) from a Tamiya kit. But you’ve got more chance of Airfix doing a new tool Spey Phantom in 1/48 than converting a Tamiya. You might just get one from Meng or Kinetic when they’ve exhausted all the other options…

best,

M.

[CT7567]

To expand a bit for reference:

Other than the F-4J(UK) operated uniquely by 74 Sqn and made up of refurbished USN F-4J airframes, all RAF (F-4M, aka FGR.2) and RN (F-4K, aka FG.1) Phantoms were purpose-built UK variants which featured Rolls Royce Spey engines in place of the usual J79s. This change involved slightly enlarged intakes and deeper exhausts, so the bulk of the airframe is subtly but noticeably different from any other variants.

 

The Tamiya F-4B is closer to an F-4J, but the later production model features a different wing ("thick" vs the early "thin" version), different exhausts ("long" burner cans vs the "short" early version), and other detail differences depending on timeframe.

 

So to accurately depict any RAF variant, you'd need a moderate or major conversion (that does not yet exist).  1:48 isn't my scale of preference but at last check Hasegawa's Spey variants were the best available, and there are several quality F-4J kits that could get you to the J(UK) with suitable decals and other minor updates.

[Terry1954]

You would be better off getting a Hasegawa FGR2 (or the Revell re pop). Not bad kits at all IMHO.

 

As others have said, UK Spey powered Phantoms, are quite different, certainly in fuselage profile and obvs engines, to US types.

 

Terry

[cmatthewbacon]

There’s a recent Revell re-box of the Hasegawa that seems widely available for about £45, so you could almost have two for the price of the Tamiya…

best,

M.

[tweeky]

10 hours ago, CT7567 said:

F-4J(UK) operated uniquely by 74 Sqn and made up of refurbished USN F-4J airframes

Lick of paint and a preflight isn't a refurbishment. I remember Air Clues the RAF's flight safety magazine and one of the F4j were in the Hangar for some rectification work on removing a panel they found a petrified lizard. 

[Giorgio N]

3 minutes ago, tweeky said:

Lick of paint and a preflight isn't a refurbishment. I remember Air Clues the RAF's flight safety magazine and one of the F4j were in the Hangar for some rectification work on removing a panel they found a petrified lizard. 

 

All aircraft were stripped of paint, repaired if needed and received part of the F-4S conversion package (so much that some consider them slatless F-4S rather than F-4J). 

A number of specific USN systems were removed (including everything needed for carrier operations) while others were installed.

Overall it was a bit more of a coat of new paint and each aircraft required around 8 months of work.

The various modifications also mean that building one of these aircraft from an F-4J kit requires some work ftom the modeller, starting with the lower reinforcement straps across fuselage and wings

[Gisbod]

Thanks guys, that’s helpful… 

 

I’ll have a think about the Hasegawa 🤔

 

I just fancied having a go at the super duper new Tamiya kit.

 

 

Guy

[alt-92]

6 hours ago, Gisbod said:

I just fancied having a go at the super duper new Tamiya kit.

You can make an F-4G out of it. 

 

The Navy one, that is.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/remembering-u-s-navy-f-4g-phantom-perform-automatic-carrier-landings/

Pretty cool too, the paint job wasn't too sturdy on those sometimes.

[exdraken]

17 hours ago, Gisbod said:

Thanks guys, that’s helpful… 

 

I’ll have a think about the Hasegawa 🤔

 

I just fancied having a go at the super duper new Tamiya kit.

 

 

Guy

I suggest then to build a US operated plane from it   or an interesting what-if ( what if the UK had spend less and gotten suitable F-4s earlier...) ( I know that for the small UK carrier the nose wheel extension was necessary  and more thrust desired....)

[Stuart Wilson]

Well, you could always build that F-4N that got stuck on HMS Ark Royal with a fault whilst cross-decking and got zapped with the 892 emblem.

 

Stuart

 

[Stuart Wilson]

1 minute ago, Stuart Wilson said:

Well, you could always build that F-4N that got stuck on HMS Ark Royal with a fault whilst cross-decking and got zapped with the 892 emblem.

 

Stuart

 

I found decals for it at Hannants. Can't get a link to work but the product code is CTA-040. They have it as an F-4B so it may be just a case of using the decals.

 

Stuart

[Giorgio N]

151477 was still a B when she had her markings altered on Ark Royal.

The configuration of the antennas on the tip of the tail was different from the one offered by Tamiya in their kit but can be sorted with a cutter and abrasive paper

[Gisbod]

Ah thanks, found the decals, so still the original scheme but with the tail endorsed 🙂

 

Guy

[Robertone139]

Hasegawa boxed that one in 48 scale.

[Richard S]

On 26/11/2022 at 09:21, cmatthewbacon said:

There’s a recent Revell re-box of the Hasegawa that seems widely available for about £45, so you could almost have two for the price of the Tamiya…

best,

M.

I bought one in Hobbycraft a couple of weeks ago for £32.00, no idea if that is the regular price or a special of some sort, but I consider that an absolute bargain for the quality of the kit. If you decide to go this route I would check there first.

[ftm2001]

You can get the Revell one for £30 on Amazon

[Gisbod]

Just to resurrect this thread - the bee is still in my bonnet.. I just wanted to clarify:

 

Using a Zoukei-Mura F-4j - specifically what would I have to change (if anything) to depict it as a 74 squadron version as they are loaned/ bought US F-4j’s?

 

Pictures would be helpful! 
 

Thanks

 

Guy

[iainpeden]

They all had the intake fairings (empty) except one (ZE350???). Only one came across the pond with a black fin (and not the leading edge of it). Only 3 got resprayed in "proper" British colours . Good luck with the blue they came over in - and even that wasn't consistent.

 

This might help.

https://bpag.co.uk/

 

[Sundowner14]

9 hours ago, Gisbod said:

Just to resurrect this thread - the bee is still in my bonnet.. I just wanted to clarify:

 

Using a Zoukei-Mura F-4j - specifically what would I have to change (if anything) to depict it as a 74 squadron version as they are loaned/ bought US F-4j’s?

 

Pictures would be helpful! 
 

Thanks

 

Guy

ZM did a decal sheet (F-4J (UK), Phantom II F-4J Marking Set SWS48-04-D01) which came out with the UK release of their F-4J. As has been mentioned, a few mods would be required to make the kit as an F-4J(UK). As for the blue/grey/green, I’ve phound that FS35414 is a very good match.

[XV571]

The F-4J(UK)s were basically airframes upgraded to near F-4S standard, but without the slats. Use the late F-4J cockpit parts I8, I9, I10, I12 and I14 in place of the specified H items and add the intake ECM fairings H5 & H6 (indeed except for ZE350/T), the other ECM bumps weren't installed. You'll have to source the belly reinforcing strap; this is the Flying Leathernecks version: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/FLV48008?result-token=G3vPB ; others are available, although mostly to fit the Hasegawa kits they probably could be adapted. Also needed are the low intensity strip, or slime, lights and to either install the TESS periscope sight or blank off the left hand central glazing between the two cockpits.

 

This may be useful, it was originally about the 1/72 Fine Molds F-4J but a lot is still relevant for all scales:

 

As mentioned, Zoukei Mura released a F-4J(UK) specific sheet SWS48-04-D01 which covers all the aircraft over their RAF service but is quite pricey (and probably OOP as it was released along with the original F-4J boxing SWS48-04 in 2016). The much cheaper Xtradecal sheet X48080 has F-4J(UK) markings but the tiger's head marking on the forward fuselage is yellow not the correct orange. Their later FGR,2 sheet X48190 does have the correct version should you want to replace them. Flint Grey FS161314 was originally used as the Barley Grey subsitute is available as Xtracolor X143. The Z-M sheet states that ZE354/R, ZE357/N, ZE361/P and ZE364/Z were the ones repainted into the standard Air Defence grey scheme during 1989.

 

HTH,

 

Jonathan

[Gisbod]

Many thanks all!

 

That’s very helpful indeed!

 

 

Guy

[Gisbod]

Ps which aftermarket weapons set would be best suited to this? 
 

Guy

[iainpeden]

57 minutes ago, Gisbod said:

Ps which aftermarket weapons set would be best suited to this? 
 

Guy

The basic war fit for an F-4J (UK) {never F-4 F.3!} would have been four Sparrows (or whatever our update was) in the belly troughs and four Sidewinders, two on each inner pylon. I don't think they ever carried the central gun pod, possibly as they were ex-USN and didn't have the necessary wiring. (Might be wrong there).

External fuel tanks - well that looks less clear. Photos showing them carrying two wing tanks are usually early ones with the fins not painted black so I'd go for the central belly tank if you're doing a black tail.

Then there's the question of actuality. Unlike the RAFG and Falklands based Phantoms, were the F-4J (UK)s ever in a "prepared for war" fit - I don't even know if they ever stood a full QRA.

There are a number of photos of the Js bare, except for the port inner pylon and I have one of Q (ZE3??) with no tanks, both inner pylons, the outer rail of the port pylon carrying a blue sidewinder acquisition round and a grey Sparrow ballast round in the forward port trough. (grey fin).

 

Never simple is it?

 

[Selwyn]

2 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

The basic war fit for an F-4J (UK) {never F-4 F.3!} would have been four Sparrows (or whatever our update was) in the belly troughs and four Sidewinders, two on each inner pylon. I don't think they ever carried the central gun pod, possibly as they were ex-USN and didn't have the necessary wiring. (Might be wrong there).

External fuel tanks - well that looks less clear. Photos showing them carrying two wing tanks are usually early ones with the fins not painted black so I'd go for the central belly tank if you're doing a black tail.

Then there's the question of actuality. Unlike the RAFG and Falklands based Phantoms, were the F-4J (UK)s ever in a "prepared for war" fit - I don't even know if they ever stood a full QRA.

There are a number of photos of the Js bare, except for the port inner pylon and I have one of Q (ZE3??) with no tanks, both inner pylons, the outer rail of the port pylon carrying a blue sidewinder acquisition round and a grey Sparrow ballast round in the forward port trough. (grey fin).

 

Never simple is it?

 

The basic war fit was four Skyflash missiles and four AIM9L  Sidewinders, AIM7E Sparrow was obsolete by the time these aircraft were purchased by the RAF. You can use the kit sparrows as Skyflash but they should be painted Light aircraft Grey  BS 627 not white.

 

Selwyn