Fw190 DB603 prototypes with chin intake

[Graham Boak]

I've stared at photos and plans of these beasts but find it difficult to get an exact comparison for modelling purposes.  I believe that the thrust line is raised (possibly by 110mm) giving a flatter top to the nose and a smaller annular radiator with a distinctive chin intake before the leading edge.  There doesn't seem to be an easy way of cross-kitting anything else to fit, that I know of.  However there was a kit of the turbocharged variants, from MPM I believe or one of its subsidiaries.  Does anyone who has or has made one of these confirm/deny that it would make a straightforward conversion?  (Getting one would be another problem.)

What surprised me is that this raised thrust line appears to have gone without notice or comment, despite its obvious effect on the forward vision and perhaps less obvious effects on the trim, handling and stability.

 

I do have the Classic and Japo books on the Fw190, plus assorted other, lesser, references.

 

 

Lancashire, UK

[GiampieroSilvestri]

German magazine Flugzeug Classic has an article about the development of the Daimler Benz DB 603 A-0 engine in number 12/2005,december 2005.It says "Focke Wulf gelang es bereits im Frühjahr 1942 den neuen DB 603 A-0 Reihenmotor erfolgreich in das Jagdflugzeug Focke Wulf Fw 190 einzubauen.Ohne grössere Zellenänderungen konnte die Fw 190 mit dem neuen Motor ausgerüstet werden.Das erste von drei Versuchsflugzeugen mit der internen Bezeichnung Fw 190 V-13 diente noch als reiner Motorversuchsträger.Ohne grössere schwierigkeiten ging der Prototyp anfang März 1942 in die sogennante Mustererprobung."RV Resin made a 1/48 scale kit of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 V-13.Maybe you can try to convert the Hobbyboss Fw 190 V-18 Känguruh as it has the same engine?

 

https://ipmsdeutschland.de/archiv/FirstLook/Hobby_Boss/HB_Fw190V18_48/HB_Fw190V18.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited November 25, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Graham Boak]

Thanks Giampiero, but I'm unrepentantly 1/72.  There is a Planet resin kit, of which Hannants have one in stock but I feel the price is too high for what I fear is the quality.  I think I can cope with an MPM one.

[Zephyr91]

Graham,

 

By chance I'd been looking at earlier stuff in BM on this subject 

The quoted history therein, distinctly does mention the appalling handling characteristics of this experimental version.   

 

Another reference I have merely suggests testing of the aircraft was "unsatisfactory" and makes no mention of quite why. ( "The Focke-Wulf 190 a Famous German Fighter", Heinz J Nowarra et al,  Harleyford, 1972).

 

Interesting subject.

 

cheers

Rob.

[Graham Boak]

Thanks for this, although with so many postings to read I haven't got too into it far yet.  However the account seems to have got things a bit back to front, as the aircraft originally flew with the unturbocharged DB603, with the turbocharging following (probably as intended all along).  The key problem with the unturbocharged engine was that the performance was little better than the current production aircraft with the BMW801.  it did take a long time for the Germans to sort out turbocharging, if indeed it can be said that they ever did.  However at this stage the DB603 was still a "difficult" engine and in great demand elsewhere:  although it was the one engine that Tank wanted he was never to get it in time.  The handling problem is almost certainly due to the longer nose of the in-line engine and was sorted by the tail extension piece used on the D and subsequent variants.  The V-18 saw three different forms: unturbocharged Jumo with chin intake, turbocharged DB603 with chin intake, and unturbocharged DB603 with dropped thrust line and integrated cooling - as on the D (see edit).  The latter two are sometimes called the V-18/U1 and V-18/U2.

 

My opinion, now somewhat informed, is that the kit has too large a diameter cowling, appropriate for the final version rather than the earlier one.  This is being discussed on the 72nd Aircraft website.

 

EDIT.  V-18 initially Jumo 213 not DB603.  It is not clear whether it flew in unturbocharged form with either engine.  My text may have been wishful thinking on my part as I am looking for a "standard" fighter with the chin intake as a model.  After Giampiero's posting (see below) I have been unable to find the photo which I had understood to be the V-18 with an integrated cowling.  It was to be rebuilt for use in the Ta152/153 programme so this reshaping would have happened - if it was ever carried out.  If I find it, I shall edit the edit (this can go on for some time).

[fernandocouto]

Although Fw 190V18 from HB is a quite new kit, I recommand modellers GET RID OF it.

 

Did not check much reference cause I found  curved  side windshields and weird shape of canopy's bottom edge. 

Every luftwaffe modeller knows V18 was converted from A series, while designer of the kit (I don't know who) just copied a profile full of mistakes.

If they even got this part wrong , you can imagine what else. So please keep your wallet.

 

Among we Chinese modellers, there is a saying that "if you check any reference while building Trumpeter kits (including other labels under this brand) you are losing"

While, if you just want to stick parts together and paint, this kit is a pleasure to you, except price tag.

[Graham Boak]

Nobody tried the Planet 1/72?

[GiampieroSilvestri]

16 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Thanks for this, although with so many postings to read I haven't got too into it far yet.  However the account seems to have got things a bit back to front, as the aircraft originally flew with the unturbocharged DB603, with the turbocharging following (probably as intended all along).  The key problem with the unturbocharged engine was that the performance was little better than the current production aircraft with the BMW801.  it did take a long time for the Germans to sort out turbocharging, if indeed it can be said that they ever did.  However at this stage the DB603 was still a "difficult" engine and in great demand elsewhere:  although it was the one engine that Tank wanted he was never to get it in time.  The handling problem is almost certainly due to the longer nose of the in-line engine and was sorted by the tail extension piece used on the D and subsequent variants.  The V-18 saw three different forms: unturbocharged DB603 with chin intake, turbocharged DB603 with chin intake, and unturbocharged DB603 with dropped thrust line and integrated cooling - as on the D.  The latter two are sometimes called the V-18/U1 and V-18/U2.

 

My opinion, now somewhat informed, is that the kit has too large a diameter cowling, appropriate for the final version rather than the earlier one.  This is being discussed on the 72nd Aircraft website.

The Focke Wulf Fw 190 V-18 Känguru was a Höhenjäger prototype and had the DB603 engine with Hirth Turbolader or Vorverdichter under the fuselage.The version with the normal fuselage is the Focke Wulf Fw 190 V-13,V-15 and V-16.

Here is the link to a review from ipms Deutschland of the planet models 1/72 scale Fw 190 V-13 kit.

 

https://ipmsdeutschland.de/archiv/FirstLook/Planet_Models/Planet_Fw190C_V-13_V16/Planet_Fw190C_V-13_V16.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited November 28, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[dragonlanceHR]

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Nobody tried the Planet 1/72?

 

I have the Planet kit but in 1/48 and it's one of their older ones with lots of undefined detail, esp. the chin intake.

[MDriskill]

These notes only lightly dance around the original question, but...

 

These three books have much good info, and 1/72 drawings, on the various Focke-Wulf long-nose prototypes. IMHO the the 4+ title is the best-researched, but each contains interesting photos and drawings the other two lack:

 

 

 

I'm no expert on the convoluted history of FW's many high-flying one-offs, but FWIW a personal fave is the V-32, often referred to as the "Ta 153 prototype." It had the DB 603 with chin intake, rear fuselage extension, widened fin, and a 12.4-meter-span "stretched" version of the normal Fw 190 wing. Whether it was a serious proposal for production, or just an expedient to test the 603 at higher altitudes (this wing having been used on an earlier BMW 801-powered prototype)...well, who knows, but it looks kinda cool.

 

 

 

Zephyr91, thanks much for the link to the excellent 1/72 MPM V-18 build! Finely accurate or not, to my eye it captures the look of the beast well for a vintage lim-run. Here's a look at the kit; crude plastic, but the decals and Eduard PE are pretty good. Omit the turbo fairing and work on the upper wing roots, the kit could make the V-13, V-15, or V-29 Fw 190C prototypes.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by MDriskill

[MDriskill]

Apologies for another post only peripherally related to the OP...🙄

 

By coincidence there is a current related discussion in a Facebook discussion group. I've learned there that the "kangaroo" turbo prototype was the V18/U1. There was a V18/U2, which looks to have re-used the "CF+OY" Stammkennzeichen - but which appears to be a full-blooded Ta 152H prototype - surely not many parts beyond the aft fuselage were carried over from the V18/U1. 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by MDriskill

[tempestfan]

OT I know, but... Reinsehlen is a mere 35 miles south of Hamburg city centre 😉

The MPM kit really is from the Dark Ages, but quite some improvement over their early Smer/Heller-based 262 versions... Those u/c retraction struts remind me of the Italeri D-9.

[Bozothenutter]

On 11/25/2022 at 6:24 PM, GiampieroSilvestri said:

German magazine Flugzeug Classic has an article about the development of the Daimler Benz DB 603 A-0 engine in number 12/2005,december 2005.It says "Focke Wulf gelang es bereits im Frühjahr 1942 den neuen DB 603 A-0 Reihenmotor erfolgreich in das Jagdflugzeug Focke Wulf Fw 190 einzubauen.Ohne grössere Zellenänderungen konnte die Fw 190 mit dem neuen Motor ausgerüstet werden.Das erste von drei Versuchsflugzeugen mit der internen Bezeichnung Fw 190 V-13 diente noch als reiner Motorversuchsträger.Ohne grössere schwierigkeiten ging der Prototyp anfang März 1942 in die sogennante Mustererprobung."RV Resin made a 1/48 scale kit of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 V-13.Maybe you can try to convert the Hobbyboss Fw 190 V-18 Känguruh as it has the same engine?

 

https://ipmsdeutschland.de/archiv/FirstLook/Hobby_Boss/HB_Fw190V18_48/HB_Fw190V18.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

The Flugzeug classic articles are available in book form as well. 

Just search amazon for the writer....😉

[Bozothenutter]

On 11/25/2022 at 6:24 PM, GiampieroSilvestri said:

German magazine Flugzeug Classic has an article about the development of the Daimler Benz DB 603 A-0 engine in number 12/2005,december 2005.It says "Focke Wulf gelang es bereits im Frühjahr 1942 den neuen DB 603 A-0 Reihenmotor erfolgreich in das Jagdflugzeug Focke Wulf Fw 190 einzubauen.Ohne grössere Zellenänderungen konnte die Fw 190 mit dem neuen Motor ausgerüstet werden.Das erste von drei Versuchsflugzeugen mit der internen Bezeichnung Fw 190 V-13 diente noch als reiner Motorversuchsträger.Ohne grössere schwierigkeiten ging der Prototyp anfang März 1942 in die sogennante Mustererprobung."RV Resin made a 1/48 scale kit of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 V-13.Maybe you can try to convert the Hobbyboss Fw 190 V-18 Känguruh as it has the same engine?

 

https://ipmsdeutschland.de/archiv/FirstLook/Hobby_Boss/HB_Fw190V18_48/HB_Fw190V18.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

The Flugzeug classic articles are available in book form as well. 

Just search amazon for the writer....😉

 

As I'm all over the place interest wise...

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235088201-fw-190-v13/

[Graham Boak]

42 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

The Flugzeug classic articles are available in book form as well. 

Just search amazon for the writer....😉

Who is?

 

The V-18/U1 was handed over to the Ta152 programme - and there was the intention to fit larger wings to at least some prototypes as part of the C programme.  There seems no reason to doubt that we are seeing the same airframe, as the retained SKZ indicates.  I believe that the fuselage extension was also intended for the C-series aircraft but didn't make it before cancellation.

 

After poring over plans in various sources, primarily Classic and Monogram, I am now convinced that the C-series radiator cowl is smaller than that of the Dora, which makes sense as it lacks the oil cooler which is moved from the chin into the nose on the D.  This causes a problem in all models I've seen, which seem to have simply retained the D cowl.  The difference is only 1mm in 1/72, which is the scale I'm interested in, but noticeable.

[Bozothenutter]

Had to look it up..

Dietmar Hermann 

[Graham Boak]

Thanks, found and ordered.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

19 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Who is?

 

The V-18/U1 was handed over to the Ta152 programme - and there was the intention to fit larger wings to at least some prototypes as part of the C programme.  There seems no reason to doubt that we are seeing the same airframe, as the retained SKZ indicates.  I believe that the fuselage extension was also intended for the C-series aircraft but didn't make it before cancellation.

 

After poring over plans in various sources, primarily Classic and Monogram, I am now convinced that the C-series radiator cowl is smaller than that of the Dora, which makes sense as it lacks the oil cooler which is moved from the chin into the nose on the D.  This causes a problem in all models I've seen, which seem to have simply retained the D cowl.  The difference is only 1mm in 1/72, which is the scale I'm interested in, but noticeable.

The Book "Focke Wulf Fw 190/Ta 152 Jäger,Bomber,Panzerjäger" By Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel says after cancellation of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 C Höhenjäger the aircraft with Daimler Benz DB603 engines were used as prototypes for the Ta 152.The Focke Wulf Fw 190 V-18/U-1 Känguruh was renamed Fw 190 V-18/U-2 or Ta 152 V-4.It was damaged during take off on 23rd of december 1944.The aircraft was destroyed by the Luftwaffe at Reinsehlen or Leck on the 6th of April 1945.Before being used as prototype for the Ta 152 the Känguru should have been used as test aircraft for the Daimler Benz DB603LA engine and Musterflugzeug for the Focke Wulf Fw 190 D-14 but due to unavailability of engines this never happened.So according to the book there was only one Focke Wulf Fw 190 V-18 used as test aircraft for different versions of the Fw 190.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited December 1, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[SafetyDad]

14 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

After poring over plans in various sources, primarily Classic and Monogram, I am now convinced that the C-series radiator cowl is smaller than that of the Dora, which makes sense as it lacks the oil cooler which is moved from the chin into the nose on the D.  This causes a problem in all models I've seen, which seem to have simply retained the D cowl.  The difference is only 1mm in 1/72, which is the scale I'm interested in, but noticeable.

 

These might help - the 190C compared to other variants

 

 

 

and a Fw190D-9 for comparison

 

 

from here

 

 

(all photos posted for the purpose of research/discussion only. Intentionally slightly distorted to discourage further replication)

 

SD

[Graham Boak]

Thanks, I haven't seen that publication, but these drawings are modern reworks of the originals and lack the dimensions quoted elsewhere.  There is more along those lines in the sources I quoted above.  Though I don't think I've seen the V-32 with its bigger wing - I feel that this with its extended fuselage is close to what would/could have been a production C.  Is there a plan view or a quoted span for this wing - there were a number of different suggestions in the texts and if one of them was specific to the V-32 I don't recall it?  I hope to get the Hermann book in a week's time which may give more - though I'm much less than fluent in German I can make a stab at understanding and notated drawings speak to everyone.

[tempestfan]

4 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

 

 

 

 

 

and a Fw190D-9 for comparison

 

 

 

SD

 

That bedsheet sadly is missing from my copy... 😞 Are the basic drawings the same as in the Aero Detail (IIRC also by Mr Nohara)?

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Thanks, I haven't seen that publication, but these drawings are modern reworks of the originals and lack the dimensions quoted elsewhere.  There is more along those lines in the sources I quoted above.  Though I don't think I've seen the V-32 with its bigger wing - I feel that this with its extended fuselage is close to what would/could have been a production C.  Is there a plan view or a quoted span for this wing - there were a number of different suggestions in the texts and if one of them was specific to the V-32 I don't recall it?  I hope to get the Hermann book in a week's time which may give more - though I'm much less than fluent in German I can make a stab at understanding and notated drawings speak to everyone.

If you'd like anything specific translated, drop a PM after arrival.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

RV aircraft makes a 1/72 scale resin model of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 V-32.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Zephyr91]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Is there a plan view or a quoted span for this wing - there were a number of different suggestions in the texts and if one of them was specific to the V-32 I don't recall it? 

Graham,

 

What a fascinating thread this is.    I offer some snippets below

 

On 27/11/2022 at 23:10, Zephyr91 said:

( "The Focke-Wulf 190 a Famous German Fighter", Heinz J Nowarra et al,  Harleyford, 1972).

From my previously quoted reference I have gleaned these bits of info regarding the V-32  BUT caveat emptor!  I have found slight inconsistencies within the book itself and I don't have other references to check.  So with a slight pinch of salt, I offer the following

 

Fw 190 V-32

1. It started life as  Fw 190A-0 Wnr 0057  with reg  GH + KV. 

2. DB603G installed as proptotype for the C series and became V-32 - later tabulated in the book to have span of 34' 5.5" (34 feet 5.5 inches for those not familiar with old UK notation 😉). There is a photo of it in this state with enlarged fin (compared to A series)

3. When the projected C-series development was abandoned it received modification to become the forerunner of the projected Ta 153. (Possibly in place of the crashed V-19 which had been earmarked for that?)  It was fitted with a Jumo 213F engine and became the V-32/U1..  No armament.  Span 34'5.5".

4. Wing of Ta152 V-25 installed on the Fw190V-32/U1 to enable flight testing in November 1944.  No armament.  Span 47'4.5"  (my emphasis for clarity).

5. Installation of Jumo 213E-1 engine with engine mounted MG 213.  Designated Fw190V-32/U2   Span 47'4.5"

 

The reference is complicated but given the subject that's understandable,  so I have simplified things a bit hopefully for clarity.

 

I apologise if this is old info, but I didn't see it in the discussion previously. 

 

Hope this helps

 

[Zephyr91]

Apologies.  I've just noticed that the length of the aircraft changed bigger wing was installed.  the length went from 31'1"  to 35'1.5"

[MDriskill]

Giampiero: Thanks! I did not know there was a kit of the V32.

 

Graham: the V32 wing was very interesting. It spanned about 12.4m - apparently a "stretch" of a standard Fw 190A one (note it even retains the old MG FF outboard cannon access panels). The Ta 152 wings were significantly different, with revised internal structure and relocated fuselage attachment points. A similar wing had been used on the V27, a BMW 801-engined Fw 190B prototype:

 

 

 

This drawing of the V32 brings up another interesting point...how did combustion air get to the engine? Neither turbo fairing nor side supercharger intake is evident. (The short-wing V13 prototype was similar, which the CMK Special Drawings book describes as having "...a centrifugal compressor, connected hydraulically to the output shaft"...eh?):

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by MDriskill