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The true old times are dead (1/72 92 Squadron Lightning F.2)


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1 hour ago, Procopius said:

* Some vile little brat sat there absolutely annihilating poor Winston with cruel mockery, even getting the other kids to chant at him -- and poor Win is actually in these situations too articulate; his classmates cannot understand him when he's agitated because he talks to them as he would talk to me -- while this kid's mother just stood on (especially galling to me, as I'm one of those parents who's mortified when their children misbehave in public, and Winston keeps me mortified almost non-stop), and me with the knowledge I couldn't just swear at the kid until he was a sobbing wreck because Mrs P is a teacher at their school just sitting there, strewing, and trying to stop the kid's heart with my mind. It's against the law to hit other people's children, because otherwise people would never be able to bring themselves to stop.

True, but immensely sad PC.

 

Obligatory mention to prove I'm watching and have the pre-requisite Frightening memories.

 

All those wonderful air shows with English Electric dreams to recall.

 

At Little Rissington I saw Stampes perform Lomcevak manoeuvres which I thought were about to tear the Rothman liveried wings off

 

...and then the Red Arrow Gnats appeared from below the horizon at the end of the runway to perform their peerless display.

 

Various other aerodynes operated to near the limits designed for them, Cosmic Wind astounded with its glimmery paintwork and then...

 

From the same dip in the world from which the Sparrows appeared a noise happened, and the silver bird sailed on into the stratosphere thence to orbit the Cotswolds mightily.

 

Then other 'planes did their things but those three items remain in my memory, as does riding to the show in my friend's Austin Healey Sprite.

 

Happy times.

 

I can bore mightily about Lightnings, old man memories latch on where they may and mine do figure Lightnings in great array.

 

Please delight us more dear fellow, I'm in

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by perdu
Overcopied items deleted - I hope
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Loved the erudite introduction Edward, the Orwell quote was new to me.  Like all of us he had successes and failures, good points and bad. strengths and weaknesses, was loved and hated. But his life had an impact that was writ large on the course of British and World history from the Boer War to the Cold War. 

As for the Lightning, my first encounter was at RAF Coltishall in the late 60's- after that forever smitten.

 

Following your build with great interest.

Colin

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Watching a Lightning display at an airshow was always worth it, with a finale of the vertical reheat climb, presumably followed by a rapid descent to the airfield earmarked for landing as the fuel gauges wound down to zero. I always have a memory that the displays were longer if the aircraft took and landed at the display airfield. My other memories were a four ship providing cover for an attacking force invading Finningley. They came in first and cleared the opposition before a half dozen Phantoms carried out a strike. Somewhere along the line, some Harriers were deployed and the new Jaguar shown off. Slightly off topic, as Finningley had been a V Bomber base, they had the layout to enable a four Vulcan scramble, always a highlight. Four aircraft away from engine start to clear the airfield I timed at 1min 55 secs. Felt rather than heard with the aircraft rocking on their nose  wheels before brake release as full power built up

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Was at Farnborough [can't remember what year] when four Lightnings performed a scramble takeoff  ! As earth shattering an experience as the 4 Vulcan takeoff mentioned by @Mr T above, which I also remember.

 

Sights 'n' sounds never to be repeated.

 

Rog 

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Mine was at RAF St Athen 1972 end of the day, low mist starting to roll in off the Severn, eveyone returning to coaches and cars accross hardstandings, a noise that cavetated my chested came over the top of the crowd, rose to avoid the tower and for a short period there were three suns in the sky. I remember one small boy actually falling over from the shock as the beast disappeared into the amber gloom, my mate and I went from Ooooo to Cor to crying laughing at the poor child's predicament. 

I consider page 2 as an early start for me.

 

After market the innards out of it old fruit!!!

 

Box on

 

Strickers

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Trying to rush through this as I was supposed to be asleep an hour ago, but a major miscommunication ("Let me get my kindle, I'll watch the baby so you can shower percolated through Mrs. P's Mars-to-Venus babelfish as "I have done all I shall do today, and it's only 7:30 PM, by all means vanish for two hours, for I shall be abed." I eventually text her to surmise that she must be cleaner than any human being yet living after about two hours, at which point it became clear that (a) she hadn't gotten in yet, and (b) it's back to signal flags, because voice transmission of information has failed me.

 

17 hours ago, Bedders said:

I'm in for a bit of this. (Got an Airfix F6 in the stash, awaiting return of mojo.) In the meantime and for inspiration, this is quite a nice video of Lightnings at Binbrook in 1987: https://youtu.be/w7gTqFU2Qlk

 

Speaking of the Last Lightning Show, my copy of The Last of the Lightnings vanished from where I'd left it (in a chair, I'm always leaving books in chairs in case I find myself sitting in one with nothing to do -- proof that deep down, I must be an optimist), and reappeared today with major damage to the dust jacket, in the weirdly dry and lizardlike hands of my Winnie. 

 

PXL_20221120_234053023

 

He's been amusing himself by finishing a 1/700 Dragon HMS Invincible I bought with the hull built for the princely sum of $2, and did a very creditable job of adding the masts as well as the propellers, shafts, and radar aerials today. Not too bad for someone who once fidgeted so hard he stepped backwards and fell down a staircase.

 

PXL_20221120_141909642

 

He also clipped out the air wing and we've all been stepping on Sea Harriers all day. He is only seven, after all.

 

I'm not sure why, maybe it's because his hairstyle is rapidly approaching peak 1970s, but the little fellow is quite taken with the Lightning. As he looked through the book, he muttered to himself, "I've got to build two, because there are two different [F.6 and T.5 -- he cannot as yet discern the differences between single-seat Lightnings] kinds and I need one of each."*

 

"Does it weird you out that he has your brain with my features?" Mrs P asked me.

 

Grant, meanwhile, found a dress my mother had bought for Madeleine and wore it all day along with its accompanying bow, leaving us to wonder if we were on the cusp of shipping off to fight in an exciting new front of the interminable Culture War. No matter what, of course, my love for him will be exactly the same: only slightly less than Winston. He managed to score a 1/350 Mikro-Mir R-class SSBN out of my stash when it became clear that Winston was as interested in sharing Invincible as the junta was in sharing the Falklands. 

 

Since I didn't have much time, I worked mainly on the Reskit exhaust. This is the most beautifully cast resin I've ever seen. I'm not sure if it's 3D-printed or what -- it certainly doesn't look like what my little 4K printer puts out and has casting blocks -- but it's amazing.

 

I very carefully extricated the flame holders and dropped them into part of the little engine shaft(? piping? I'm tired).

 

PXL_20221121_050803657

 

I also, as you can see, assembled and primed the Barracuda seat. 

 

PXL_20221121_045858944

 

To get the seat to fit the Sword cockpit, I had to sand down what I think is part of the manual override handle assembly on the right side of the seat base, and it seems like it will go in much better now.

 

 

 

 

* I welcome advice on the best Lightning kits for a small boy. I have built Sword and the Airfix F.2A/F.6, and know that they aren't it. In this case, accuracy takes a back seat to simplicity and ease of building.

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2 hours ago, Procopius said:

* I welcome advice on the best Lightning kits for a small boy. I have built Sword and the Airfix F.2A/F.6, and know that they aren't it. In this case, accuracy takes a back seat to simplicity and ease of building.

 

 

 

Edward the 'old' Airfix Lightnings were probably, er, less involved than the newer ones maybe you could score one of them or maybe the similar vintage Hasegawa/Frog F6.

 

Be aware, (I'm sure you are) the nose cones on said Airfix offering is less pointy nosed than Hasegawa's.

It is possible I may have a spare, free Hasegawa one, allow me to check today.

 

Er does it weird you?

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If accuracy isn't an issue, the otherwise ghastly offerings in 1/72th from Trumpeter should be available relatively cheaply and from my memory of investigating the 2 that I had (donated them to my  model club as raffle prizes, IIRC, because anyone who gambles deserves bad luck occasionally), they don't seem to be too difficult to build. (Borne out by the reviews I just looked up). 

 

The old Hasegawa/Frog/Revell F.6 kit scrubs up well, although it is a child of its times. It should also be cheap in a Revell box, with Revell's usually good decals. 

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9 hours ago, Procopius said:

With the guns absent, would the barrel fairings have the gunports covered, or would they be opened? It seemed like most photos of F.1As I saw had no gunports on the lower fairings. Though mayyyyybe XM190's sister F.1A XM189 has the lower fairing gunports as well? The upper ones seem to be closed up entirely.

 

English_Electric_Lightning_F1A,_UK_-_Air

 

Hi Edward, XM189 is shown there much later in life with 226 (OCU), 65 Sqn RAF Coltishall (or RAF Upper Heyford) in 1972 after it had finished front line service, and yes, the upper cannon ports are plated over with the cannon no longer required for the training role. Difficult to tell with the photo resolution, but the lower cannon ports appear to have been plated over in a similar manner to the upper ones.

When the upper cannon ports are plated over, they have the grey elliptical panel over the original dark steel coloured muzzle panel. The lower cannon ports usually appear to have the (roughly) rectangular dark steel muzzle panel replaced by an aluminium blank panel which matches the airframe colour.

In frontline squadron service the upper cannon ports can be seen both open and blanked; the photos with them open tend to be early in service, and those with them blanked off later (the Lightning gun sight was found to be fairly rudimentary and not very accurate in service). The lower ports are nearly always blanked off when missiles are fitted - the photo of the 111 sqn Lightning you posted appears to be an exception. I couldn't find any photo's of a 4-cannon fit in service, this isn't to say it wasn't a fit, more that it wasn't common / photographed.

After frontline service when used for training and target facilities, cannons were removed and replaced with ballast, and the ports were plated over, but the missile fit was retained albeit with dummy/drill/practice rounds. The missiles were found to aid maneuverability in certain circumstances, especially when inverted.

As always, go with a photo if you can find one.

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On 11/20/2022 at 7:24 AM, Procopius said:

was actually rather surprised that it was by all accounts fairly pleasant to fly, which doesn't seen to have been the case very often with early supersonic jets.

 

I bet it was ginormous fun to fly, although I think the cockpit workload involved in operating it was pretty high; not least when using the radar (which involved looking down a rubber ‘hood’ and probably doing a fair amount of interpretation of what the display was saying!).  Oh and fuel management too (obvs.).

 

Watching a Lightning or two drop out of a cloud base out over the North Sea not far from Binbrook and get stuck into a turning fight with a formation of Jags before disappearing to the heavens was a sight to see.  The romanticism of memory makes it a vertical descent and vertical climb in full burner against a sullen sky every time.  But that’s probably the gloss of false memory :D  Playing with Lightnings was a much-favoured past time and it was a great disappointment to us when they retired.

 

I’m listening on audio book (principally when out cycling) to Winston Churchill’s collected letters from the Boer War at the mo.  I love them.  Much mention of musketry and enfilading fire and the importance of gentlemanly conduct in officers. The writing is beautiful (imho).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Lord Riot said:

Did any Jag ever manage a ‘kill’ or was it just try and stay in the fight ‘til the Lightnings ran too low fuel?

 

It probably goes without saying that a Jag shouldn’t really get a kill on a well flown Lightning in a good old fashioned 1v1 :D (I’m thinking rear aspect IR missiles and guns).  Slight power differential ;)  Actually I think we could pull more ‘G’ than a Lightning; a clean Jag was cleared to 8 ‘G’ and I doubt that a Lightning was (a least  by that stage in it’s service life).  But having an 8’G’ limit and then having the power and aerodynamics to exploit it are rather different things….

 

But back in the day a Lightning trying to get close enough to get a red top away on a Jag at low level (250ft) would be vulnerable to getting a sidewinder up the chuff from one of the target Jag’s buddies.  2 jags flew low level in a line abreast pair formation, and 4 Jags  in a ‘card formation’ (think of the position of the diamonds on a  4 of diamonds playing card)- and so on for 6 or 8 jets (2 x card 4s).  With good lookout and manoeuvring as a pair or 4, there’d be a decent chance that the lighting’s rear was exposed within the sidewinder (9G) envelope of at least one jet in the formation before he was in a position to get a red top off against anyone.  We sort of ignored the fact that we didn’t have the overwing pylons fitted for sidewinders in those days and all the other pylons would have been in use for other stuff :whistle: Anyway, so the cold war theory went.  Practising it was fun and It thankfully never got put to the test for real :) 

 

So yes; we used to claim we’d ‘shot down’ Lightning's all the time :rofl2:  They’d doubtless claim they were in an out without being seen with no Jag anywhere near the 9G envelope and with a ‘kill’ or two.

 

The point was that the Lightnings could be relied upon to get in close to try for a visual IR shot and we got the fun and practice of turning hard at low level as a formation and trying to get an IR shot off ourselves and then the challenge of picking up the pieces and getting back on track and on time afterwards.    Often when training against F4s and F3s they’d satisfy themselves with looking for  Skyflash shots using the radar and all we’d do is manoeuvre away when the RWR picked up the radar signal and pretend to drop chaff (or drop it for real over the North Sea).  They often wouldn’t attempt to go for a sidewinder kill so it could be a bit dull.

 

Anyways.  Drift over.  Sorry PC.

 

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6 hours ago, Rob G said:

If accuracy isn't an issue, the otherwise ghastly offerings in 1/72th from Trumpeter should be available relatively cheaply and from my memory of investigating the 2 that I had (donated them to my  model club as raffle prizes, IIRC, because anyone who gambles deserves bad luck occasionally), they don't seem to be too difficult to build. (Borne out by the reviews I just looked up).

 

Ah, the Trumpeter Lightnings. If accuracy is an issue, you've got quite a bit of work ahead. Here's my RFI, which has a link to the WIP. I would never do this again now that the new Airfix kit is available.

 

*****

 

Nice work so far, Edward. It looks like Winnie has inherited your scale modelling gene, as my grandson Carter has inherited mine. There may be hope for the hobby after all. Provided, of course, that the boys don't discover those resin figures of mostly nekked ladies. That might divert their attention.    :)

 

Cheers,

Bill

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3 hours ago, Fritag said:

bet it was ginormous fun to fly, although I think the cockpit workload involved in operating it was pretty high

Absolutely right on both counts.  Handling was generally a joy and power adequate for what we needed:  "in thrust we trust" or "lift is a gift, thrust is a must".  Workload was high, esp. at low level over the sea at night; poor radar lookdown capability,  a missile that pointed a couple of degrees up and no radalt kept you awake.  Taxiing in from that I used to turn the cockpit lights up full,  heating to max and look forward to the first beer!  The view down the (radar) 'boot' as it was known was indeed a bit weird, it was a 'B' scope presentation but the human being is an extraordinarily adaptable animal and you got used to it.  With regard to fuel, just accept that you're short of the stuff even before engine start and you'll be fine!

 

Skip

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6 hours ago, perdu said:

It is possible I may have a spare, free Hasegawa one, allow me to check today.

 

Er does it weird you?

 

I'm a middle-aged American man living in a midwestern city who flys a Union Jack, spells "colour" with a u, and reads up on 1970s British political history so I can make oblique jokes on a modelling forum: I'm not a reliable barometer of weird! But I certainly wouldn't say no, and would be happy to reimburse for postage at the very least

 

6 hours ago, Rob G said:

If accuracy isn't an issue, the otherwise ghastly offerings in 1/72th from Trumpeter should be available relatively cheaply and from my memory of investigating the 2 that I had (donated them to my  model club as raffle prizes, IIRC, because anyone who gambles deserves bad luck occasionally), they don't seem to be too difficult to build. (Borne out by the reviews I just looked up). 

 

I vaguely recalled those having a fair number of more complex bits, being aimed at the adult modeller who had been blinded by CA fumes and/or never seen a Lightning. I'm sure Win wouldn't notice the inaccuracies, but I worry he'd struggle with the smaller bits.

 

4 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

In frontline squadron service the upper cannon ports can be seen both open and blanked; the photos with them open tend to be early in service, and those with them blanked off later (the Lightning gun sight was found to be fairly rudimentary and not very accurate in service). The lower ports are nearly always blanked off when missiles are fitted - the photo of the 111 sqn Lightning you posted appears to be an exception. I couldn't find any photo's of a 4-cannon fit in service, this isn't to say it wasn't a fit, more that it wasn't common / photographed.

 

 

Thank you so much, Dave! So presumably XM190 just had her lower ports left unblanked, even though with the missiles on there'd be no cannon. Do anyone know of some memoirs by 111 Squadron pilots who flew with it in the 1960s? Sometimes they shed light on stuff in photos in passing.

 

3 hours ago, Fritag said:

Watching a Lightning or two drop out of a cloud base out over the North Sea not far from Binbrook and get stuck into a turning fight with a formation of Jags before disappearing to the heavens was a sight to see.  The romanticism of memory makes it a vertical descent and vertical climb in full burner against a sullen sky every time.  

 

1 hour ago, Fritag said:

Anyways.  Drift over.  Sorry PC.

 

 

Ah yes, drop into a build thread, share fascinating stories about extremely cool experiences with the type of aircraft being built, which people pay real money to read (cf. the Grub Street books), and then apologize. As if we could forgive that relevant and interesting addition to the thread, you monster. Unforgivable.  (I should build a 6 Squadron Jaguar next, to lure you out like a bowl of milk for a hedgehog.)

 

29 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

 

Ah, the Trumpeter Lightnings. If accuracy is an issue, you've got quite a bit of work ahead. Here's my RFI, which has a link to the WIP. I would never do this again now that the new Airfix kit is available.

 

Your build cost me a fortune in aftermarket, Bill! Many years ago, my original plan was to use the Trumpeter F.1 to do this aircraft.

 

29 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

 

Nice work so far, Edward. It looks like Winnie has inherited your scale modelling gene, as my grandson Carter has inherited mine. There may be hope for the hobby after all. Provided, of course, that the boys don't discover those resin figures of mostly nekked ladies. That might divert their attention.    :)

 

The other day, Winston sad, apropos of nothing "Did you know princesses would let people watch them undress, as a reward? Isn't that weird?" (Clearly he's learning a lot at school.) 

 

"Well, what about it, Edward," said Mrs P, "would you pay to watch me undress?" 

"I have, Melanie. A very heavy price indeed."

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5 minutes ago, Skip said:

The view down the (radar) 'boot' as it was known was indeed a bit weird, it was a 'B' scope presentation but the human being is an extraordinarily adaptable animal and you got used to it. 

 

I confess I had to look up what a B-scope presentation was, having never had to read a radar display in my life. Did one have to jam one's face right up to the display to read it, or could it be interpreted from being looked at while scanning the rest of the cockpit? Also, very exciting to have now not one, but two fast jet pilots in here, finally I'm doing something ten year old me would be interested in.

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10 minutes ago, Procopius said:

could it be interpreted from being looked at while scanning the rest of the cockpit?

No way was the radar display daylight readable so one had to be pretty tight against the boot to use it so it had to be incorporated as a discrete part of a cockpit scan, rather than seeing the whole picture as one.  To try and 'help' us not go too wrong the display did incorporate a horizon line but I personally never found it too useful - there was usually a lot going on!

And my apologies too for the thread drift but I'm afraid us WIWOLs (When I Was On Lightnings!) can't resist it!

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Late to the party as usual -  fascinating thread so far and looking forward to seeing thing develop.

 

I grew up near Leuchars and remember the Lightnings vividly - so loud that every body cavity would resonate, creating an overwhelming sense of power.

I have a 1/48 F6 lurking somewhere, which is destined to become a Leuchars one, of course.

 

Watching with keen interest.

Q

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Edward send to me an address (PM) and I shall send to you a Frog/Hasegawa B.A.C. Lightning - Interceptor Fighter as interpreted by Novo who got the moulds fresh from Frog when Rovex hit the dust.*

 

I am at the moment without a spare canopy for it, yet, but I expect to come across one in short order.

 

Said kit does not yet have decals either but before posting that deficit will also be rectified.

 

The kit was rescued from dumping by a sentimental attachment to Lightnings which is almost inexplicable...

 

Or is it?

 

:) 

 

I have the canopy stuffed in a bag elsewhere but it still lives on in my house so not to worry!

 

 

*the mouldings are as fresh as they were when Hasegawa and Frog used to bung them in their boxes

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21 minutes ago, Skip said:

And my apologies too for the thread drift but I'm afraid us WIWOLs (When I Was On Lightnings!) can't resist it!

 

This is like God popping in to the rectory while the vicar is having tea with the deacon and discussing, oh, I don't know, the Book of Job or something, and God saying "well, here's what I was really thinking...anyway, sorry for the bother, I hope I didn't spoil the conversation too much." I would have pushed my granny over a cliff to get to ask an RAF pilot questions as a boy. I still would now, but she's dead, so it means less.

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