1/48 Avro Lancaster Mk. X (Serial No. KB700) aka The Ruhr Express - August 1, 1943

[Sergeant]

Thank you, @Bedders and Happy Friday to you too. It's raining today, but this is normal in the Pacific Northwest. Nice thing about scale modelling is you can enjoy it inside a warm place. If on the other hand my interest was duck hunting, I would be freezing my a-- off in some damp duck blind (random thoughts).

 

Cheers,

 

Harold

[Winded Penguin]

For further research I found the 360 degree photography of 'Just Jane' is quite a good reference too, if you've not seen it?

 

 

[Sergeant]

9 hours ago, Winded Penguin said:

For further research I found the 360 degree photography of 'Just Jane' is quite a good reference too, if you've not seen it?

 

 

Thank you @Winded Penguin I had not seen this 360 degree photography of 'Just Jane', until now. It is very interesting and like you said a good reference.

 

Harold

Edited November 26, 2022 by Sergeant

[Sergeant]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:20 PM, RJP said:

Cataracts, ugh!  I had mine done several years ago and  what a relief it has been.  My surgeon was able to eradicate my short-sightedness while he was at it so goodbye to wearing glasses after almost 60 years.  Now I just need reading glasses for, well, reading.

 

Lovely shots of the CWH Lancaster.  It is of course FM213 under the skin, a late-built machine from the second batch delivered by Victory Aircraft in early 1945.  It has a number of differences from the original KB700 and there are a few points worth making with respect to the original.  I haven't got the HK Lancaster so am not sure which of these details might be covered by it.

 

KB700 was delivered in mid 1943 so was built to the then-current standard.  This means it had narrow blade props, sometimes referred to as “needle blades”.  Also, as delivered it carried the original blunter bomb aimer’s blister, later changed out for the later deep blister as moulded in most kits..

 

The pitot tube was carried in the original position further forward and angled down as seen from in front.  I see the HK box art includes the early pitot.

 

The mid upper turret was the Frazer-Nash 50 type with the fairing and in the original position aft of the bomb bay;  FM213 carries the American Martin 250 in the late-war position over the bomb bay.  It also had the mid-under turret, a Frazer Nash 64 just aft of the bomb bay.  The bomb doors were bulged down their centre line to fair the turret in.

 

Exhaust flame dampers were installed from the get-go so.

 

Finally, the row of fuselage windows seen on early Lancasters, a holdover from Manchester days, were not obvious in most photos of KB700.  They were however installed but painted over at the factory, a common enough mid-production feature. 

 

A Googling for KB700 will reveal all these details.  I’m not sure how welcome these points are but I’d feel remiss not to bring them up.  I am looking forward to following your progress.

@RJP I made a list below of items to compare on the HKM 1/48 Lancaster B Mk. I kit with the Lancaster Mk. I (R5727), original Mk. X Ruhr Express (KB700) and newer Ruhr Express (FM213). I used several photographs to make this comparison. It appears that HKM's kit matches the Mk. I (R5727 and the original Mk. X with exception of the Flight Engineer's panel, mid-lower turret, and painting over the fuselage windows.

 

1. Flight Engineer's Panel. Conclusion: Based on earlier post the HKM kit does match Mk. I, but does not match Mk. X.

2. Narrow (needle) blade propellers. Conclusion: HKM kit does match Mk. I and Mk. X.

3. Blunter bomb aimer's blister. Conclusion: HKM kit does match Mk. I and Mk. X.

4. Pitot tube is further forward and angled down. Conclusion: HKM kit does match Mk. I and Mk. X.

5. Mid upper turret was Frazer-Nash 50 type with fairing aft of bomb bay. Conclusion: HKM kit does match Mk. I and Mk. X.

6. It also had the mid-under turret, a Frazer Nash 64 just aft of the bomb bay. Conclusion: The HKM kit does not have a mid-under turret.

7. Exhaust flame dampers installed. Conclusion: HKM kit does match Mk. I and Mk. X.

8. Row of fuselage windows, painted over. Conclusion: HKM kit has row of windows and they can be painted over.

 

In August 1942 Lancaster Mk. I (R5727) became the first of its type to fly the Atlantic, having been chosen as the pattern machine for production of the Lancaster Mk. X (KB700) in Canada. It is seen here at Prestwick airport before the flight.

 

 

Lancaster R5727 at RCAF Station Rockcliffe, Ontario, Canada on its flight to Victory Aircraft at Malton, Ontario 31 August 1942.

 

August 1, 1943 was a proud day for the workers of Victory Aircraft and indeed for all Canadians as the first Canadian-built Lancaster Mk. X (KB700) rolled off the assembly line.

 

Below is the newer Ruhr Express (FM213) with serial number KB700.

 

Edited January 2 by Sergeant

[Sergeant]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:20 PM, RJP said:

Cataracts, ugh!  I had mine done several years ago and  what a relief it has been.  My surgeon was able to eradicate my short-sightedness while he was at it so goodbye to wearing glasses after almost 60 years.  Now I just need reading glasses for, well, reading.

 

Lovely shots of the CWH Lancaster.  It is of course FM213 under the skin, a late-built machine from the second batch delivered by Victory Aircraft in early 1945.  It has a number of differences from the original KB700 and there are a few points worth making with respect to the original.  I haven't got the HK Lancaster so am not sure which of these details might be covered by it.

 

KB700 was delivered in mid 1943 so was built to the then-current standard.  This means it had narrow blade props, sometimes referred to as “needle blades”.  Also, as delivered it carried the original blunter bomb aimer’s blister, later changed out for the later deep blister as moulded in most kits..

 

The pitot tube was carried in the original position further forward and angled down as seen from in front.  I see the HK box art includes the early pitot.

 

The mid upper turret was the Frazer-Nash 50 type with the fairing and in the original position aft of the bomb bay;  FM213 carries the American Martin 250 in the late-war position over the bomb bay.  It also had the mid-under turret, a Frazer Nash 64 just aft of the bomb bay.  The bomb doors were bulged down their centre line to fair the turret in.

 

Exhaust flame dampers were installed from the get-go so.

 

Finally, the row of fuselage windows seen on early Lancasters, a holdover from Manchester days, were not obvious in most photos of KB700.  They were however installed but painted over at the factory, a common enough mid-production feature. 

 

A Googling for KB700 will reveal all these details.  I’m not sure how welcome these points are but I’d feel remiss not to bring them up.  I am looking forward to following your progress.

@RJP I was confused about your statement in bold text above: "It also had the mid-under turret, a Frazer-Nash 64 just aft of the bomb bay". At first, I thought you were talking about the original KB700 because I could see in the recent photograph that FM213 did not have a mid-under turret. Then I realized in the context of your complete paragraph you were comparing FM213 to the original KB700 which led me to think the FM213 had this mid-under turret at some point in its history.

 

When I went looking for photographic evidence, I discovered an interesting coincidence. Lancaster R5727, the British built Mk. 1 used as a pattern to build the original KB700 Mk. X had a mid-under turret as shown in the photograph below. However, KB700 Mk. X did not have the mid-under turret and neither does FM213 or the HKM Avro Lancaster B Mk. I. So regardless of whether FM 213 had a mid-under turret at some point in its history the KB700 did not and neither does the kit which makes it a perfect candidate for conversion to the Canadian Mk. X KB700.

 

If I am wrong or have my facts confused, please correct my understanding.

 

Harold

 

British built R5727

 

Canadian built KB700

 

Original Ruhr Express KB700

 

Newer Ruhr Express KB700 (FM213)

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sergeant

[dogsbody]

When it left Canada, KB700 may not have been fitted with the ventral turret, but after arrival in Britian it was. 

If you look at your 3rd photo, on the lower right side, you can see the guns. I've circled that in red.

 

 

You can see it better in this photo from the IWM.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Sergeant]

On 11/27/2022 at 8:50 AM, dogsbody said:

When it left Canada, KB700 may not have been fitted with the ventral turret, but after arrival in Britian it was. 

If you look at your 3rd photo, on the lower right side, you can see the guns. I've circled that in red.

 

 

You can see it better in this photo from the IWM.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

Thank you, Chris. @dogsbody Your photograph is the evidence I was looking for and could not see in my photograph. The mid-lower (under) gun turret and barrels are clearly visible. When I said in my previous post the HKM kit does not have a mid-lower turret that may be incorrect. There is an option shown in the kit instructions that I did not understand, but it may be the turret, please look at Step 18 - Option B of the instructions. https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/4/9/1/1335491-98-instructions.pdf

 

After more research I am convinced that clear plastic part #G-24 is not meant to be an FN-64 mid-lower gun turret. I don't know what this part is but there is nothing like it on a Canadian built Mk. X as far as I can tell. There is also information that suggest the FN-64 gun turret was ineffective and seldom used against aerial attacks from below. So, the question is do I try, and scratch build an FN-64 gun turret or just not include it on the model?

 

Harold

 

Step 18 - Option B. The instructions do not say what clear plastic part #G-24 is called, but it appears to be in the location of the mid-lower gun turret.

 

This is what I would expect to see in the HKM kit for a Type FN-64 mid-lower gun turret.

 

 

The Lancaster was originally designed with a ventral gun turret, the FN-64. It proved ineffective and was seldom used for the reasons mentioned below.

 

Edited January 6 by Sergeant

[dogsbody]

Option B is the fitting of the H2S housing. Alas, no ventral turret!

 

 

 

Chris

[Sergeant]

On 11/27/2022 at 12:34 PM, dogsbody said:

Option B is the fitting of the H2S housing. Alas, no ventral turret!

 

 

 

Chris

Thank you, Chris. After looking online for an aftermarket 1/48 Frazer-Nash 64 ventral turret without success I decided to scratch build one with good quality resin blocks I saved from an Eduard Lancaster wheel set I purchased. I noticed that HK Models have molded a circular feature in their fuselage parts shown below in the correct location of the ventral turret. I measured the diameter of that molded feature and its 21mm, the same diameter as the mid-upper turret. The Periscopic Gun Sight Illustration and sketch below give me enough information to carve or form the resin blocks using a Dremel Tool into a shape that represents the external part of an FN-64 turret. I can use Master-Model brass Browning .303 cal. machine gun barrels that were intended for 1/48 Boulton Paul Defiant.

 

Even though the Lancaster B Mk. I did not find the FN-64 ventral turret very effective it was never the less installed in both the R5727 and KB700, so in the interest of authentic scale modelling and historical accuracy I would like this Canadian Lancaster model to have that turret installed as well.

 

Harold

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sergeant

[elger]

epic stuff!

[Winded Penguin]

I'm book marking your page for future reference as you are covering some really interesting angles on this thread 

I've a Lancaster in the stash, but it's sacred to me and not to be touched until I've a few more projects under my belt.

[dogsbody]

A couple more photos, just because I can.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Sergeant]

On 11/28/2022 at 9:58 AM, elger said:

epic stuff!

 

20 hours ago, dogsbody said:

A couple more photos, just because I can.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

 

22 hours ago, Winded Penguin said:

I'm book marking your page for future reference as you are covering some really interesting angles on this thread 

I've a Lancaster in the stash, but it's sacred to me and not to be touched until I've a few more projects under my belt.

Thank you @elger @dogsbody and @Winded Penguin Chris, I appreciate the photographs and support in scratch building the external part of an FN-64 turret. I am looking forward to doing this, it is a skill I've been developing little by little with each project, carving plastic resin with a Dremel tool.

 

@Winded Penguin I feel the same way you do about the Lancaster. I purchased mine about a year ago but did not want to start on it until I had more experience. After I completed the 1/48 RAAF PBY-5 Catalina with @JackG I felt ready to build this Lancaster. I also have another reason for treating this build with special reverence. My Uncle who I was named after was an RCAF Flight Lieutenant and pilot of Lancaster's in RAF 153 Squadron. He flew 11 missions over Germany in 1944 and before that was a Flight Sergeant and pilot of RAF fighter aircraft in 153 Squadron.

 

Harold

Edited November 29, 2022 by Sergeant

[Sergeant]

I have looked for manufacture's drawings of the FN-64 ventral turret, and according to a Lancaster restoration and fabrication expert they do not exist. https://www.lancasterraf.co.uk/fn64-turret/ If anyone has information regarding manufactures drawings of an FN-64 I would greatly appreciate your help.

 

So how do you build something in scale modeling when you don't know it's dimensions? I know the diameter of the mid-upper turret in 1/48 scale is 21mm. By comparing the unknown height of the 64 turret to the known diameter of the mid-upper turret I can estimate the height and the radius of the FN-64 external housing. Beyond that it is just guesswork and speculation.

 

I can see in the photographs below and the photographs Chris @dogsbody provided the external housing is basically the shape of a round cast-iron sink with a notch or recess on one side between the two Browning machine guns that extend into the center of the housing.

 

Harold

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sergeant

[TonyOD]

2 hours ago, Sergeant said:

guesswork and speculation.

…is part of the fun of scale modelling.

[Sergeant]

5 hours ago, TonyOD said:

…is part of the fun of scale modelling.

I agree Tony.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Sergeant

[dogsbody]

About all I have that may be useful are these two A. Granger drawings.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Air Ministry]

The ring diameter of the FN50 mid-upper differs to that of the FN64 - 38.25" v. 34.125" for the latter.  These are the outside diameters.

 

I have a Frazer Nash drawing for the FN64 which might be of some help to you, but no means of uploading it to this forum.  If someone who can upload wants to p.m. me an email address I'll scan it for you?

[dogsbody]

12 minutes ago, Air Ministry said:

The ring diameter of the FN50 mid-upper differs to that of the FN64 - 38.25" v. 34.125" for the latter.  These are the outside diameters.

 

I have a Frazer Nash drawing for the FN64 which might be of some help to you, but no means of uploading it to this forum.  If someone who can upload wants to p.m. me an email address I'll scan it for you?

 

I've just messaged you my email address. Sent me the image and I'll post it here.

 

 

 

Chris

[Air Ministry]

OK but please note the drawing is marked "SECRET AND CONFIDENTIAL" so don't go sharing it around!

[dogsbody]

Okay, here's Air Ministry's drawing:

 

 

And here's an edited version I did to remove un-needed areas of the original:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Sergeant]

3 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Okay, here's Air Ministry's drawing:

 

 

And here's an edited version I did to remove un-needed areas of the original:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

Chris @dogsbody and @Air Ministry you are absolutely amazing. This is exactly what I needed. Thank you both.

 

By the look of some dimensions, I'm guessing the drawing is in Imperial units (British Imperial System). Height of turret housing would be 14.63 inches, 4-inch radius on the back of the external housing, 11.5 inches center-to-center distance between the gun barrels. I can see in the title block it says FN-64 but the drawing does not show the notch or recess on one side of the housing between the two Browning machine guns that extend into the center of the housing. Perhaps it was a later revision.

 

My original estimate of 8mm was a little off because the correct height of the housing external to the fuselage is closer to 6.6 or 6.8mm in 1/48 scale. That would be roughly 12.5 inches in actual height. I am so pleased to have this drawing as a reference, I can't thank you both enough.

 

Harold

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Sergeant

[Sergeant]

The photographs below are a 1/48 scale FN-64 ventral turret for Avro Lancaster Mk. X model. The turret is made of Eduard resin bits that I saved from different kits and glued together to make a piece big enough to work. I used a combination of Dremel Tool bits, files and sanding sponges to carve out a shape resembling the drawing provided by @dogsbody and @Air Ministry plus other photographs of the turret shown in earlier posts.

 

I also ordered the Master-Model 1/48 brass .303 caliber machine gun barrels to install in this turret housing as well as all the other turrets on this Lancaster model.

 

Harold

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sergeant

[Sergeant]

The next step on the FN-64 turret is to add some resin to the bottom of the turret, so I have material to carve out a shape to match the curve of the fuselage. If you notice the turret in the photograph below there is a visible rim (ring) where the turret housing and fuselage, make contact.

 

Originally, I had planned to remove plastic on the fuselage where I circled the parts in the photographs below, but after considering how to attach the FN-64 it seems unnecessary because I can glue the turret to the bottom of the fuselage. I may include two brass wire pins in the bottom of the turret that will fit into holes I drill in the fuselage. I have used this method in the past for ensuring proper location with good success and it reinforces the glue joint.

 

Harold

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sergeant

[Sergeant]

On 11/30/2022 at 8:30 AM, Air Ministry said:

The ring diameter of the FN50 mid-upper differs to that of the FN64 - 38.25" v. 34.125" for the latter.  These are the outside diameters.

 

I have a Frazer Nash drawing for the FN64 which might be of some help to you, but no means of uploading it to this forum.  If someone who can upload wants to p.m. me an email address I'll scan it for you?

Thank you @Air Ministry that 6-inch differences is a little over 3mm in 1:48 scale. I can make the correction. The model FN-64 I created out of resin is 20.8mm in 1:48 scale, so in 1:1 scale that is 39.307 inches. I need to loose about 5-inches (2.6mm).

 

Harold

Edited December 4, 2022 by Sergeant