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Potez 631 camouflage scheme question


fightersweep

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Hi all;

 

I'm just about to attack a 1/72 Heller Potez 631 with paint, but the camo scheme plan on the kit instructions is next to useless. Doing a quick Google seems to reveal more variations on the upper camouflage colour scheme pattern than I can wave a stick at.

 

I'm no expert on WW2 French Air Force camo schemes, but was there a standard pattern to the application of three colour upper surface colours such as there was a fairly standard pattern for RAF camo? Do I just go with whatever I fancy doing? Or is there an official pattern? I would be grateful for any pointers as I don't have any reference on the bookshelf and Google has just confused me further!

 

Thanks in advance;

Steve

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Hi Steve,

 

If I recall correctly some types - the Dewoitine D.520 for example - had a 'more-or-less' defined pattern, but even then it was not a regular pattern in the sense of the RAF schemes which would be virtually identical from one aircraft to the next. Other French aircraft schemes seem to have been pretty much left up to the chap doing the painting. I'm not sure where the Potez fits in between these two options but from what I have seen (mostly on models I confess) I think you have a degree of artistic licence regarding your model :) Perhaps one of our French forum-buddies will be along to give a more definitive answer.

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

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Thanks Stew! That was the impression I was getting. Looking at numerous profiles, built models and period photos, I got the impression that there wasn't any set pattern for the 631. I'll see if one of our French friends chimes in, but I'll probably just wing it as I'm keen to get this one finished. There will be more though as I seem to be having a bit of a French thing going on at the moment with a stash of Heller and Azur kits lined up to be built. 

 

Cheers!

Steve

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2 hours ago, fightersweep said:

 I seem to be having a bit of a French thing going on at the moment with a stash of Heller and Azur kits lined up to be built

 

Cheers!

Steve

Tsts... you should be building Airfix kits from T6 boxes 😉 Which makes me wonder how your collection has developed in this respect? Long time no see, somewhere else...

I had a look in some ancient Polish booklet which covers Polish units in Armée de l'Air and RAF service, as I thought it might have a diagram of a 631 in it, but regrettably not. I ***think*** Replic had a big feature article on the 631, but that must have been some 20 years ago. I'd have a look if you told me where the box(es) with the Replics is/are...

 

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@tempestfan

 

Long time no hear! Still have a stash of Airfix T5s and T6s, but most of them are just pretty things I look at and don't build 😇 I did start buying up loads of 1970s and early 80s Heller "Black Box" kits as they don't seem to get much love from the collectors and the prices are still really low. Also, I had forgotten what lovely models Heller kits from that period are, so I've been buying them in in doubles. Build one, put one in the collection. As a consequence, I have a lot of French subjects to build.

 

Tell me about boxes of stuff! I keep discovering things I'd forgotten about. I can imagine that Replic would have run an article on the 631 at some point. I think I'll use some of the Google images I've found and just do something similar. I'm beginning to form the opinion that neither myself or anyone else would know if the end result is accurate or not.

 

Cheers;

Steve

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@fightersweep - oh well, life has been rather busy in the past 3 years in particular... Well, I bet there are some on a certain collecting forum that would be interested in your Heller kits, in particular as many of the black boxes are rather scarce and have gorgeous Bergèse artwork. Well, I branched into Heller, too, back in my active collecting days...

 

To get back to the Potez, a quick google brought up this thread which is not particularly relevant to your question, but may be of help re interior colours. And it confirms that there must have been something in Replic not later than February 2002...

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Something I read years ago while doing my D.520 is that they didn't have a standard camouflage so as to confuse enemy reconnaissance. Kinda, sorta makes sense but at the same time doesn't. To me it always seems that French aircraft camouflage was applied with a fire hose.

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On 11/17/2022 at 6:50 PM, fubar57 said:

they didn't have a standard camouflage so as to confuse enemy reconnaissance. Kinda, sorta makes sense but at the same time doesn't. 

 

To be more precise, they were trying to solve the same problem Brits and Germans had, and that is avoid repetition of the same pattern on the ground (which is, surprisingly, very conspicuous from above, even if the colors match their surroundings perfectly).

The British solved this easily by mirroring the same cammo pattern on half the machines, while Germans made it even simpler - each factory producing the same aircraft had a slightly different wing cammo pattern.

 

The French were like 'Naaaah, too efficient!' and gave complete freedom to the camouflage...r. Only two conditions - all colors had to be represented about equally in total area, and there should be no two repeating patterns.

At first glance, this would seem like the easiest and quickest way by far, but imagine your job is to paint e.g. 50 aircraft that week, and having to come up with a pattern completely different from the last. And the one before it. And the one before it...

 

And nobody thought of us poor nerds trying to research all thiss stuff 80 years later 🤓

To be completely sure what the cammo pattern for Your specific Potez was, You'd need to have photos from all angles (including the above), which is almost impossible to exist.

Edited by warhawk
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Yes, the human eye is very good at picking out patterns, probably from our distant predator/prey history.

 

I haven't heard of the Germans requiring different pattern on the wings of aircraft from different factories.  The bombers in particular had a single standard design which was fitted to each type in the plan view, and constant on all of a given type throughout the war.  There were a number of upper wing patterns applied to the Bf.109, but not simply factory by factory - although this could be a factor I've not seen it suggested.  Later in the war the camouflage on the sides varied from factory to factory, so it may be that the wings did too.  I don't think this would necessarily be by order from on high.  Prewar they had a similar principle but using three colours plus each mirrored.  However this does not seem to have been widely used, factories tended to adopt a single pattern and stick to it.  I think that Do,17s do show at least one of the alternatives.

 

I have several histories of the French camouflage systems, including the recent superb Ehrengardt book and the current series running in Les Ailes.  No one of them suggest a requirement to be "completely different" on each individual airframe, just that some variation was required.  Somewhat easier.  As said above, the D.520s show just this, with close but very similar patterns on each airframe.  Other types less so.  There are some interesting MS.406s showing late experiments with a lighter camouflage, but these should not be confused with any "natural" variation within the standard.

 

Interestingly, both the British and German (and Russian) air forces went through the war with constant patterns, relying on reasonable colour matches and breaking up the outline.  The US and Japanese generally ignored even the latter.  Or both.

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for severy french airplane the scheme of camo must be various to avoid memory of shape.

seen this nota on camouflage and markings drawing MS 406 -1939.

nota_p10.jpg

 

 


But some model, as the Potez 63 family ha a standard camouflage pattern(aft 39)

camo_p11.jpg

 

interior surfaces of cockpit was blue grey before  dec 39

(63-11 wreck)

gris_b12.jpg

 

then after the midnight blue was used(on the right), at the left it's blue-grey

gb_ou_10.jpg

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