Help with German paint colors?

[Crankycraftsman]

Hey all 

 

 I'm looking for a mix formula for RAL 8012 red oxide primer using Tamiya xf paints. I'm only looking for Tamiya equivalents, as they spray good. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ron G 

[Casey]

I can try that. Give me a moment I need to run the math.

 

My math gives this result:

 

RAL 8012 - Rotbraun - Red brown
    Suggested using total of 10 parts (DE00: 0.40)    Expected: #6F4743, Simulated: #6F4642
        XF-7 - Flat Red: 5
        XF-10 - Flat Brown: 4
        XF-12 - J.N. Grey: 1

 

I've checked it in practice, and it is pretty close. Mind that the resulting paint is flat not glossy.

 

Here are spectrophotometer readouts of RAL 8012 (on the left) and the mix above (on the right)

 

 

LAB color coordinates

 

RAL 8012: L*: 34.37, a*: 15.75, b*: 9.33

Tamiya mix: L*: 33.21, a*: 15.89, b*: 9.71

 

It has difference of 0.98 DE.

 

If you need spectrophotometer curves or more technical details, ask me.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Casey

[Crankycraftsman]

Hey Casey

 

  What about 80% hullbred xf-9 and 20% flat red xf-7 with a few drops of xf-57 buff to make it look old and faded?

Ron G 

[Casey]

2 hours ago, Crankycraftsman said:

Hey Casey

 

  What about 80% hullbred xf-9 and 20% flat red xf-7 with a few drops of xf-57 buff to make it look old and faded?

Ron G 

I do not have measurements of XF57, I only have data for first 16 Tamiyas so I would need to make a sample.

 

XF9 and XF7 together alone make color similar to the target.

 

Also a few drops is not too precise I mix paints using lab equipment, the sample above using my recipe I mixed using 500/400/100 microliters each.

 

Do you have RAL color samples?

 

 

[Kingsman]

There seems to be some confusion here.  RAL 8012 Rotbraun was not red lead primer.  It was the camouflage colour in the 3-colour system.

 

So are you looking for primer or Rotbraun?  Red primer would be somewhat paler and pinker.  And if you're thinking of painting a German tank with areas of unpainted primer, then don't.  That idea was debunked several years ago by Thomas Jentz but is unfortunately still in circulation.

[Crankycraftsman]

Casey

 Yes I have a RAL chip for 8012. And xf-57 is a pale light tan. I made a mix of xf-9 & xf-7 with some xf-57 And it looks pretty damn close to me. I also made a mix for the Elfenbein RAL 1001 & the grey/green RAL 7033 and they match my RAL paint chips pretty good.

 

 

Kingsman

 No I'm looking for the color for the inside surfaces on a 1944ish Panzer IV Ausf H at Normandy that would have been left in primer, which from what H. Doyle says was RAL 8012

Red oxide primer.

Ron G 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Crankycraftsman

[Casey]

47 minutes ago, Crankycraftsman said:

 Yes I have a RAL chip for 8012. And xf-57 is a pale light tan. I made a mix of xf-9 & xf-7 with some xf-57 And it looks pretty damn close to me. I also made a mix for the Elfenbein RAL 1001 & the grey/green RAL 7033 and they match my RAL paint chips pretty good.

I use math to calculate my mixes. I have XF57 but to do the math I need K and S (absorption/scattering) measurements and calculating those needs multiple samples per paint. I only did that excercise for first 16 Tamiya paints so far.

 

Make sure you take into the account perceptual differences between gloss (how the RAL samples usually are) and flat finishes of Tamiya XF. I verified my mix on spectrophotometer but perceptually those colors will look different due to paint finish.

 

Cover your XF paint sample in gloss varnish to compare (or spray dried paint sample with water for temporary comparison)

 

If you mix flat paint to look similar as glossy paint target you will end up with considerably darker mixture, depending on viewing conditions but humans tend to look at 45 degree angle at gloss paint samples.

 

Thats why 45 degree spectrophotometers exist too But I am rambling...

 

Make the model look good for you first!

Edited November 12, 2022 by Casey

[Crankycraftsman]

Thanks Casey 

  I'm a retired Automotive Engineer, so I understand mathematics. What you are doing Is a bit over kill for me, besides I don't have all your equipment...lol. 

  I believe that the color mixes I came up with will work fine, especially considering all the weathering and chipping that will be done to this tank.

Thanks Ron G 

[Kingsman]

RAL 3009??  Oxide Red.

 

Many sites and model paint manufacturers conflate 3012 Rotbraun with red primer and some even call it German Primer Red Brown or similar, but they were not the same colour.  I believe this goes back to the discredited and debunked old theory that German tanks left the factory in unpainted primer.  Which the official instructions did not support, an old misinterpretation notwithstanding.