SUITABLE COLOR DARK GREEN IN BATTLE FOR BRITAIN

[Andrés S.]

Hi all.

 

I have always believed that the green color of the Spirfire and Hurricane camouflage scheme during the Battle of Britain was FS-34079 green. But I have seen some photos where it seems that it is not that color.
Is it possible that I am wrong and could other dark green colors be used such as FS-34092 for example?

 

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this question. If it is incorrect, I would appreciate it being moved to the correct one.

 

Thanks !!

 

Andrés.

[Space Ranger]

It couldn’t have been any of the Federal Standard colors, because (1) that is a U.S. standard, and (2) it did not exist until much later (1956) and has been superseded by SAE International’s AMS-STD-595.

[Procopius]

Hi Andres. The RAF did not use FS numbers, which in any case were not created until 1956, so any FS number assigned would be a modern approximation of what Dark Green was -- and the RAF's Dark Green apparently changed over time, since the 1964 BS381C colour index's dark green may have differed from the wartime one: 
 

 

 

@Greenshirt did a nice comparison of dark green acrylic model paints with a Ministry of Aircraft Production colour chip in British Aviation Colours of World War Two on his website here:

 

https://greenshirt-modeler.blogspot.com/2013/05/raf-dark-green-good-hobby-paint-match.html

 

 

I think in general, the RAF Dark Green from @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies superb range of Colourcoats enamels is considered to have the best fidelity to the RAF wartime colour, but he knows far more than I do and may be along shortly.

[Ed Russell]

 

[binbrook87]

I've used these various paints and they don't seem too bad.

Tamiya XF73 and XF81

Mr Hobby H73 H330

Vallejo model air 71294

Vallejo model color 95

 

Cheers!

[alt-92]

XF-81 for me, Mr.Hobby H73 second. 

Vallejo Model Air 71.324 looks too pine green for me.

 

 

btw: Topic titles in ALL CAPS are considered a bit ... shouty.  
Please try and avoid doing that, thanks

 

[PhantomBigStu]

I don’t believe there’s actually a thing out there that’s matched to the real MAP dark green, a few that are supposed to be the matched slightly different Bsc Dark Green some better than others. Personally my go to is Xtracrylix, as I find humbrol 163 is too dark and not quite green enough. Though I have found Vallejo 888 when XA was sold out to be perfect from first 2 bottles, the third I’m currently using isn’t quite as good

[Ngantek]

Another good resource is Phantome's colour guide

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20210723152356/https://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resources.php?r=camo_rafww2

 

Andy

 

[jackroadkill]

1 hour ago, Procopius said:

I think in general, the RAF Dark Green from @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies superb range of Colourcoats enamels is considered to have the best fidelity to the RAF wartime colour, but he knows far more than I do and may be along shortly.

 

I've always found CC's colour matching to be ideal for what I want.

[Andrés S.]

9 hours ago, Procopius said:

Hi Andres. The RAF did not use FS numbers, which in any case were not created until 1956, so any FS number assigned would be a modern approximation of what Dark Green was -- and the RAF's Dark Green apparently changed over time, since the 1964 BS381C colour index's dark green may have differed from the wartime one: 
 

 

 

@Greenshirt did a nice comparison of dark green acrylic model paints with a Ministry of Aircraft Production colour chip in British Aviation Colours of World War Two on his website here:

 

https://greenshirt-modeler.blogspot.com/2013/05/raf-dark-green-good-hobby-paint-match.html

 

 

I think in general, the RAF Dark Green from @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies superb range of Colourcoats enamels is considered to have the best fidelity to the RAF wartime colour, but he knows far more than I do and may be along shortly.

 

Hi Procopius.

 

Yes, I know, but I have recently read on the internet that both names or codes designate the same color. It has been the custom to routinely use FS code.

Thank you for the information you attached.

 

Cheers.

 

Andrés.

[Andrés S.]

9 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

 

 

Thanks !!!

 

Andrés.

9 hours ago, binbrook87 said:

I've used these various paints and they don't seem too bad.

Tamiya XF73 and XF81

Mr Hobby H73 H330

Vallejo model air 71294

Vallejo model color 95

 

Cheers!

 

Thanks !!!

 

Andrés.

[Andrés S.]

8 hours ago, alt-92 said:

XF-81 for me, Mr.Hobby H73 second. 

Vallejo Model Air 71.324 looks too pine green for me.

 

 

btw: Topic titles in ALL CAPS are considered a bit ... shouty.  
Please try and avoid doing that, thanks

 

 

 

Thanks !!!

 

Yes, I knew that writing in capital letters is considered shouting but I thought that was for let's say the texts and not for the titles.

I am sorry.

 

Andrés.

[Andrés S.]

8 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said:

I don’t believe there’s actually a thing out there that’s matched to the real MAP dark green, a few that are supposed to be the matched slightly different Bsc Dark Green some better than others. Personally my go to is Xtracrylix, as I find humbrol 163 is too dark and not quite green enough. Though I have found Vallejo 888 when XA was sold out to be perfect from first 2 bottles, the third I’m currently using isn’t quite as good

 

 

Thanks !!!

 

Andrés

8 hours ago, Ngantek said:

Another good resource is Phantome's colour guide

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20210723152356/https://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resources.php?r=camo_rafww2

 

Andy

 

 

 

Thanks !!!

 

Andrés.

[Ed Russell]

34 minutes ago, Andrés S. said:

I have recently read on the internet (1) that both names or codes designate the same color (2) . It has been the custom to routinely use FS code.(3)

(1) Don't believe everything you read on the internet

(2) Only if it is considered an exact match to the level of accuracy you desire

(3) Only if you are sure of (2) above

FS matches can be useful but once you start getting into fine differemces in colour between paints they are not much help.

And, yes, all capitals does customarily indicate emphasis (or even anger) although we know that was not your intention.

[Corky]

Paint test wing Dark Earth Dark Green

 

I did a test sample recently on an old wing.

 

I prefer AK RC286 or Gunze H73 Dark green.

Number 22 is Mr Color which Im not keen on.

 

Lighting plays an effect on this sample.....Your mileage may vary😀

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Corky
correction

[Giorgio N]

4 hours ago, Andrés S. said:

 

Hi Procopius.

 

Yes, I know, but I have recently read on the internet that both names or codes designate the same color. It has been the custom to routinely use FS code.

Thank you for the information you attached.

 

Cheers.

 

Andrés.

 

This is something model paint companies often do but it's not correct. In the end the US Federal Standard is just a catalogue of paints, others may be similar or even extremely similar to those included in the FS but they are not the same thing.

Modelling magazines do not help either as too often they also use FS numbers to identify paints from different standards, something that is not historically accurate at all.

Of course then from a modeller's perspective certain paints can be so similar that using an FS coded paint may work well enough, There's also the matter that model paints do not always properly match what they claim to be, so much that the paint I use most often for RAF Dark Green is Vallejo's Model Color 888, that is supposed to represent FS 34096 (something I'm not sure does correctly,,,)

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Corky said:

Lighting plays an effect on this sample.....Your mileage may vary

Interesting and informative - if you put the MAP book up against it you could see which one is closest.

[treker_ed]

I'll echo some of the comments above - FS numbers did not exist and were not used on RAF aircraft in the period you are enquiring about therefore any comparison using FS references is incorrect!

 

 

Personally I prefer XF 81 as my go-to for Dark Green not for any technical reason, but after doing a lot of searching, that quite often comes out as one of the better options!

 

Also, if you do the following search on google - raf dark green site:britmodeller.com - it will search for the parameters of raf dark green of the site of britmodeller.com and list anything it finds. It's somewhat better than the built in search and may actually have saved you posting the thread instead!

 

(PS using caps is considered shouting at any time titles or text - that's just one of the Internet protocols that been around for a very long time!)

[PhantomBigStu]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

I use most often for RAF Dark Green is Vallejo's Model Color 888, that is supposed to represent FS 34096 (something I'm not sure does correctly,,,)

Interesting you also settled on V888, that does suggest my current pot is just an exception

[Giorgio N]

35 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Interesting you also settled on V888, that does suggest my current pot is just an exception

 

Could be, although sometimes companies change the formulation of their paints without saying anything on the matter. Both my bottles are old enough so I can't say if this may have happened to this colour at a later date.

Have to say that as a 1/72 modeller 888 can to some look a bit on the dark side,  my current painting technique involves a lighter base onto which I add layers of heavily thinned final colour (that also allows me to create shadows etc,). Today for me this means using Vallejo Model Color 893 as a base (slightly lighter and greener), with 888 on top. Some like 893 from the bottle for MAP Dark Green.

This combination of paints is the one I used for example on this Spitfire:

 

 

 

[Andrés S.]

Hi again.

 

Well, this all comes from intending to build the magnificent 1/72 Hurricane MK I ARMA Hobby kit during the Battle of Britain, and of course I've started poking my nose here and there looking for information.
I must say that one of the first places I looked was the book "The Hawker Hurricane. A complete guide for the modeller. Modeller Datafile No. 2 from SAM Publications". On page 124 the colors and markings of this fighter are indicated and either I have misread or there is no color code indicated, using only the name and simply saying Dark Green or Dark Earth, for example.
Since the Spitfire MK I fought alongside him, I thought I'd also consult the same section of the SAM Productions Part 1 book dedicated to him for the versions that use the Merlin engine, and something similar happens on page 131.
I kept looking and my next step was to take screenshots watching the movie "Battle for Britain" on my computer, which was very possibly a mistake because we forgot that at the heart of the matter a movie is a movie.
I also searched the following website, (http://www.daveswarbirds.com/bob/spitfire.htm ) dedicated to the Spit in the aforementioned film and both in one case and the other, the green color shown by the planes has a tone, let's say, something different from what we are used to seeing in them and that regardless of photographic qualities or computer monitor calibrations the green i see in those photos and screenshots seems to have that speck of blue to me. And this green, with a hint of blue, I have seen reproduced in certain models, so I thought that there may have been variations in tonality in the colors depending on the paint supplier at the time.

 

For all this my doubts.

 

Thanks again !!!!

 

Andrés.

[PhantomBigStu]

14 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Could be, although sometimes companies change the formulation of their paints without saying anything on the matter. Both my bottles are old enough so I can't say if this may have happened to this colour at a later date.

Have to say that as a 1/72 modeller 888 can to some look a bit on the dark side,  my current painting technique involves a lighter base onto which I add layers of heavily thinned final colour (that also allows me to create shadows etc,). Today for me this means using Vallejo Model Color 893 as a base (slightly lighter and greener), with 888 on top. Some like 893 from the bottle for MAP Dark Green.

This combination of paints is the one I used for example on this Spitfire:

 

 

 

Yep, that’s what the first two pots came out like, here’s a pair of tempests I’ve done this year think the II was the last done with the second pot and v is current 

[Giorgio N]

16 minutes ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Yep, that’s what the first two pots came out like, here’s a pair of tempests I’ve done this year think the II was the last done with the second pot and v is current 

 

See what you mean, the green on the Mk.II is more olive, IMHO better. Guess the only way to find out if the latest is just a bad batch is to buy another one.

[Giorgio N]

23 minutes ago, Andrés S. said:

Hi again.

 

Well, this all comes from intending to build the magnificent 1/72 Hurricane MK I ARMA Hobby kit during the Battle of Britain, and of course I've started poking my nose here and there looking for information.
I must say that one of the first places I looked was the book "The Hawker Hurricane. A complete guide for the modeller. Modeller Datafile No. 2 from SAM Publications". On page 124 the colors and markings of this fighter are indicated and either I have misread or there is no color code indicated, using only the name and simply saying Dark Green or Dark Earth, for example.
Since the Spitfire MK I fought alongside him, I thought I'd also consult the same section of the SAM Productions Part 1 book dedicated to him for the versions that use the Merlin engine, and something similar happens on page 131.
I kept looking and my next step was to take screenshots watching the movie "Battle for Britain" on my computer, which was very possibly a mistake because we forgot that at the heart of the matter a movie is a movie.
I also searched the following website, (http://www.daveswarbirds.com/bob/spitfire.htm ) dedicated to the Spit in the aforementioned film and both in one case and the other, the green color shown by the planes has a tone, let's say, something different from what we are used to seeing in them and that regardless of photographic qualities or computer monitor calibrations the green i see in those photos and screenshots seems to have that speck of blue to me. And this green, with a hint of blue, I have seen reproduced in certain models, so I thought that there may have been variations in tonality in the colors depending on the paint supplier at the time.

 

For all this my doubts.

 

Thanks again !!!!

 

Andrés.

 

I can see how to someone without a knowledge of British WW2 colours this kind of description can be misleading!

The colours used for the camouflage aircraft in WW2 were taken from a list approved by the Ministry of Aircraft Production, the organisation responsible for setting up supply of aircraft and related equipment during the War.

While shades in the list did have a number, they were generally known only with the names. You may notice how on the forum many use the names Dark Green or Dark Earth with a capital letter, meaning they are referring to those exact colours in that list rather than to a generic dark green or earth

Some of the colours used during the war were carried over in the lists used by Ministry of Supply, that replaced MAP. Later in the '60s a number of these colours were incorporated in British Standard BS381c, a catalogue of colours similar to the American FS of the German RAL.

As said before, anytime you'll see a British military colour described with capital letters, this is supposed to be sufficient to identify the paint.. and of course we often do not realize that others may not understand what we mean so maybe we should say MAP Dark Green to better identify what we're talking about...

 

In general MAP Dark Green is an olive green, meaning that has a touch of brown. It has no blue content, however for a long time modellers all over the world used Humbrol 30 as suggested by a number of modelling companies... and that paint was a blue-green. Can't comment on the colours seen in the movie you mention as I actually never watched it ( I know, I know....)

There are a number of threads in this same forum discussing the nature of MAP Dark Green and the various paints a modeller can use to reproduce this. Some also include scans of the RAF Museum reproduction of the MAP paint list, for example these two:

 

 

 

Mind, there are many others here, these are just two of the more recent... In any case these alone should give you at least a starting point for your research into the best match.. or may even give you answers

 

[Tail-Dragon]

I did a comparison to the color chips in the RAF Museum book "British aviation colors of WW2" a while back, and Favour Tamiya's acrylic XF-81 (item E). The darker top half is under a coat of Future, but when a flat coat is applied, it dulls and fades back to a very close approximation of the color chip.