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Counting petals... on a J79 nozzle !


Giorgio N

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Not really a question but more a reflection on a problem that I encountered over the last few days, reflection that led me to a new deviation of the hobby I may call petal counting....

Now how many "petals" do the J79 engine nozzles have ??? 16 ? 18 ? 24 ? Depends on variant ?
Of course it would depend on the variant and in general there are two main families here: short (like on the F-104A-G and the F-4B/C) and long (F-104S, F-4E/J).

I did check this on both F-104 and F-4s and I came to the conclusion that the short variant features 24 petals while the long one features 16. Then if I understand right there are a few exceptions (IIRC the B-58 features a long 24-petal nozzle) but I'll not focus on these yet.

Assuming I've counted the number of petals right, then I have to wonder why model companies seem to disagree on the matter ! Hasegawa for example offers 18-petal nozzles in their newer mould 1/72 Phantoms. HighFlight, a now defunct company, also offered resin F-4E/J nozzles with... 18 petals !

Revell on the other hand offers a correct 16-petal nozzle in their F-4F, however the same company got the petals wrong in their F-104C kit while Hasegawa got the number right in all their newer Starfighter kits..

So. just for curiosity, how do other kits and aftermarket sets compare here ? Has anyone ever checked this kind of detail in kits ?

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Interesting question. I will check all my pictures of F-4. The Kfir family is also equiped with this engine. 

Why do the differ?

The basic geometry is constant.  The engine by itself. Not so the a/c with its shape.

Will see.

Happy modelling 

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16 minutes ago, dov said:

Interesting question. I will check all my pictures of F-4. The Kfir family is also equiped with this engine. 

Why do the differ?

The basic geometry is constant.  The engine by itself. Not so the a/c with its shape.

Will see.

Happy modelling 

 

Yes, the Kfir uses the a long nozzle variant of the same engine. I'll check the AMK kit to see how they represented the nozzle.

 

In theory engines from the same variant would use the same nozzle although specific uses may require specific design. Of course there were improvements introduced during the development of the J79 and the "long" nozzle was one of these. 

Notice how some aircraft that originally used the short nozzle later received the longer one with no problem, for example the German F-104s and the USMC RF-4B.

 

The differences I've seen in kits are all most likely due to bad research, although I'm always open to the possibility that there were more variations than I thought I knew

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5 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Not really a question but more a reflection on a problem that I encountered over the last few days, reflection that led me to a new deviation of the hobby I may call petal counting....

Now how many "petals" do the J79 engine nozzles have ??? 16 ? 18 ? 24 ? Depends on variant ?
Of course it would depend on the variant and in general there are two main families here: short (like on the F-104A-G and the F-4B/C) and long (F-104S, F-4E/J).

I did check this on both F-104 and F-4s and I came to the conclusion that the short variant features 24 petals while the long one features 16. Then if I understand right there are a few exceptions (IIRC the B-58 features a long 24-petal nozzle) but I'll not focus on these yet.

Assuming I've counted the number of petals right, then I have to wonder why model companies seem to disagree on the matter ! Hasegawa for example offers 18-petal nozzles in their newer mould 1/72 Phantoms. HighFlight, a now defunct company, also offered resin F-4E/J nozzles with... 18 petals !

Revell on the other hand offers a correct 16-petal nozzle in their F-4F, however the same company got the petals wrong in their F-104C kit while Hasegawa got the number right in all their newer Starfighter kits..

So. just for curiosity, how do other kits and aftermarket sets compare here ? Has anyone ever checked this kind of detail in kits ?

Hello All,

I guess I've never thought there would be any difference in companies. But have checked Academy, ESCI and Zoukei-Mura. I have the new E model from Zoukei-Mura but is buried in the stash, but the D has 24 petals. Academy C/D kit has both types of exhaust and have short 24 and long 16. ESCI C and D short has 20. My Monogram, Revell, Fujimi, ESCI E are all buried in the stash. I may have to check the F-111 and see if these follow the same. Here at home have a EF-111A and D model. Both use the same series engine but different model number.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

Edited by f111guru
correct spelling
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15 hours ago, f111guru said:

Hello All,

I guess I've never thought there would be any difference in companies. But have checked Academy, ESCI and Zoukei-Mura. I have the new E model from Zoukei-Mura but is buried in the stash, but the D has 24 petals. Academy C/D kit has both types of exhaust and have short 24 and long 16. ESCI C and D short has 20. My Monogram, Revell, Fujimi, ESCI E are all buried in the stash. I may have to check the F-111 and see if these follow the same. Here at home have a EF-111A and D model. Both use the same series engine but different model number.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

 

Interesting, sounds like the newer kits have the right number while the old Esci is wrong. I should have an Esci kit with long nozzle, will check how many petals in this. I also have the 1/72 Esci E, will check that too

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15 hours ago, dov said:

F-104 from Japan in Hamamatsu

 

Kfir C-2 from Hazerim in Israel

 

F-4 in the American Hall

 

F-4 Kurnas 2000

 

 

So, this are some examples.

 

Happy modelling

 

Nice pics, thanks for sharing!

They show well the number of petals and they are again 24 for the short nozzle (on the F-104J) and 16 for the long one (Kfir and the 2 Phantoms).

And yes, the Kfir nozzle looks to be the same of the F-4E 

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@Giorgio NTo add to your High Flight summation, their F-4B,C,D and N exhaust and tail feathers are the same count as their E,J and S exhaust with an 18 count. Came across an old set of Revell F-4E kit exhaust in 1/32nd scale from the 70's with a count of 22. Not sure where they came up with that count. So I'm going with my other 1/32nd scale kits would be incorrect whether long or short. Somewhere in my under construction workshop I have the new tool RF-4C and F-4E plus the F-4G from some years ago. Will have to put in long term memory to check.

 

Out of curiosity, I checked the F-111 kits I have under construction and found near the same differences in the P&W TF-30 series engine. Academy is correct with 18 petals for all models except for the F model. One set of tail feathers or petals for all kits. Same with the weapons pylons, one style for all models. However, Res-kit is correct on all accounts. Their resin cast for the F-111A,C,D,E and FB-111A and or F-111G, EF-111A have the correct 18 petals. The TF-30 P100 resin cast has 12 petals which is correct. Hobby Boss as with Academy only molded 1 set of pylons and engine exhaust which by the way is incorrect with 10.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

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Interesting stuff Ron ! So not only companies make mistakes in this aspect on the Phantom but the F-111 has also been treated with various degree of accuracy.

At least the Res-kit sets are correct, that is what one would expect from aftermarket products but does not always happen...

I will have to check my various Hasegawa and Esci 111s, hope to have at least something done properly... with the Phantoms I have the problem of having a few Hasegawa kits that will need replacements due to the incorrect 18-petal nozzles. Hope I'll not have to do the same with my several 111s....

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2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

with the Phantoms I have the problem of having a few Hasegawa kits that will need replacements due to the incorrect 18-petal nozzles

1/72? 
*starts saving up for a big Reskit order*

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15 hours ago, alt-92 said:

1/72? 
*starts saving up for a big Reskit order*

 

Yes, all kits I've checked are 1/72 scale.

Guess going with aftermarket is the only option. Res-Kit nozzles look great but they are not cheap. Eduard also offers the long J79 nozzle, will have to check price and quality

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I'll keep it constrained to the Hase kits, mostly. 

Putting a 15€ exhaust on a 40 year old ESCI Phantom might be pushing the envelope a bit (unless the nozzles for the Fujimi kits will fit an Ital/Esci)

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On 11/11/2022 at 12:18 PM, Giorgio N said:

Interesting stuff Ron ! So not only companies make mistakes in this aspect on the Phantom but the F-111 has also been treated with various degree of accuracy.

At least the Res-kit sets are correct, that is what one would expect from aftermarket products but does not always happen...

I will have to check my various Hasegawa and Esci 111s, hope to have at least something done properly... with the Phantoms I have the problem of having a few Hasegawa kits that will need replacements due to the incorrect 18-petal nozzles. Hope I'll not have to do the same with my several 111s....

I've checked those Hasegawa parts in 1/72nd scale. The D/F kits is correct on the amount of (12 & 18) petals or tail feathers. The F model exhaust (sprue N X 2) is a separate sprue from the other kits. Where the pave tac and the D main instrument and anti-glare shield (sprue O) is also separate.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

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21 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Yes, all kits I've checked are 1/72 scale.

Guess going with aftermarket is the only option. Res-Kit nozzles look great but they are not cheap. Eduard also offers the long J79 nozzle, will have to check price and quality

 

21 hours ago, alt-92 said:

I'll keep it constrained to the Hase kits, mostly. 

Putting a 15€ exhaust on a 40 year old ESCI Phantom might be pushing the envelope a bit (unless the nozzles for the Fujimi kits will fit an Ital/Esci)

I hardly ever re-visit alrrady built kits...that would be a never ending story! 

But for newbuilds I tend to do as good as possible. 

But then I build 1/48, were detail.is more visible and space more an issue  ;)

Quality above quantity 😀 

 

The 1/48  Hobbyboss F-111 nozzles are wrong anyway, the only have 5 instead if 6 shrouds/ fairings... Reskit all the way!

 

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6 minutes ago, exdraken said:

I hardly ever re-visit alrrady built kits...that would be a never ending story!

I still have a couple of unbuilt Esci/Italeri F-4E's, that's why. Eagerly waiting for late E's & G's  in 1/72 from FM. 

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On 11/12/2022 at 6:08 AM, alt-92 said:

I'll keep it constrained to the Hase kits, mostly. 

Putting a 15€ exhaust on a 40 year old ESCI Phantom might be pushing the envelope a bit (unless the nozzles for the Fujimi kits will fit an Ital/Esci)

I can say I agree, but. Nobody likes the word but. I have 4 1/48th scale ESCI F-4's in left my stash. Two C/D. 1 B and an E. I knew when the aftermarket stuff started coming out I would be crazy not to buy some. So over the I purchased the early and late D cockpits and the wheel well and gear doors. The B I have the same except for the addition of the forward fuselage equipment bay. Only thing left is the exhaust. I'm saving for those also.

 

Why I started saving for those is, in 1988 I ran into a fellow airman when I had a display at one of our open house air shows. To make a long story short he asked if I would build him a kit of one of our squadron jets from 1972. I did not like the way the Monogram intakes went together. So I built up a platform to cast the cockpit and panel for one of the ESCI kits I brought back from RAF Lakenheath. Seven months later I had an ESCI F-4D kit with a Monogram cockpit cast in clear casting resin. Also made a F-4J out of a C/D model for a friend of mine who was on the USS Independence from 1975 through 1978. He was a plane captain for VA-65 A-6E. I built him a Monogram A-6E with Microscale decals and scratch built the cockpit for the J. Also stole the long exhaust from the Monogram J.

 

Seems a lot of work but yes it is and we do what we do. If I were 30 to 40 years younger I'd continue scratch building and such more. Such as it is I've had to convince myself to purchase the aftermarket items versus the US market price of imported products.

 

Just my take on buying modern parts for an ancient kit. I enjoy the hobby. Been at it since 1960 and yes non scale kits were available at that time.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, f111guru said:

I can say I agree, but. Nobody likes the word but.

 

 

Eh :P
I'm mostly doing 1/72 and pickings are a bit slim with regards AM cockpits for these.
So yes, i could throw a fair amount of $$ in aftermarket into a 15$ 40-year-old
 esci kit, but is it really a good investment doing it seeing there are better F-4s available?  

 

 

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1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

 

 

Eh :P
I'm mostly doing 1/72 and pickings are a bit slim with regards AM cockpits for these.
So yes, i could throw a fair amount of $$ in aftermarket into a 15$ 40-year-old
 esci kit, but is it really a good investment doing it seeing there are better F-4s available?  

 

 

I have a number of 1/72nd scale kits in the stash and have 3 Hasegawa F/EF=111's painted and partly finished and are waiting for me to finish my workshop. The wife and I have been working on it and hope to be done or mostly done by the first of the new year. Barring any snow fall on the high plains of New Mexico.

 

These are the Res-kit F-111exhaust. The first is for the F-111A,C,D,E, and the FB-111A/G.

IMG_1164

Quite well done I must say. During this direct company purchase also bought the F-111D module. The next is the F-111F exhaust. Again well done and worth the cost and wait.

IMG_1165

I have plenty of Academy tail feathers to work with for the others planned. Also planned purchase is the FB-111A cockpit module to see if it is a before or after the AMP mod. This will determine if I make an early FB-111A or a F-111G. I was assigned to the 509th BW from September 1975 to December 1976 then on to RAF Lakenheath for the arrival of the F-111F.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

 

 

 

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The matter of using aftermarket parts on an older kit really depends on what is important to each of us... keeping in mind that the term "older" can be very relative... the Hasegawa Phantoms have been the best available in 1/72 scale til very recently and yet they are almost 30 year old kits. And they feature the wrong number of petals in the long nozzle...

The Esci kits can still be valid options but they also would benefit from aftermarket... what to do ? Sure a Res-Kit exhaust would probably cost almost as much as the kit if you consider the price of the Italeri reissues. The Eduard set would be cheaper but still relatively expensive. And what if someone still has them in the stash and want to build them ?
Personally I've sorted the matter to a point by making resin clones of better parts from different kits, reason why all my F-104 models had copies of the Hasegawa nozzles. Today I'd probably clone the AMK Kfir nozzle that is very well detailed, but that would only work for some Starfighters... and in theory should have worked on the F-4E and J but for some reason all F-104 nozzles seem to be wider than Phantom nozzles even by the same company. Now was this the case on the real aircraft? I believe not but for some reason model companies think it was.

Speaking of older or newer kits, we should also keep in mind that not all subjects have been covered by the latest really modern kits and this includes a number of quite important types: speaking of Phantoms, there is still no slatted wing F-4E on the market better than the Hasegawa one (the Revell F-4F has too many inaccurate features to compare). Sure Fine Molds may at some point issue one but to date they have not. So what should someone who wants to build one such aircraft do ? It's either Hasegawa with aftermarket or Fine Molds with aftermarket.... and what about something like a Sea Harrier ? The best is still the Esci kit, that is as old as their Phantoms...

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On 09/11/2022 at 11:22, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Finche´nel contare i petali non Ti metti a dire "m'ama,non m'ama"non ci sono problemi.🙂

 

Ciao

 

Giampiero

English please as this is an English language forum.

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On 11/14/2022 at 2:57 AM, Giorgio N said:

The matter of using aftermarket parts on an older kit really depends on what is important to each of us... keeping in mind that the term "older" can be very relative... the Hasegawa Phantoms have been the best available in 1/72 scale til very recently and yet they are almost 30 year old kits. And they feature the wrong number of petals in the long nozzle...

The Esci kits can still be valid options but they also would benefit from aftermarket... what to do ? Sure a Res-Kit exhaust would probably cost almost as much as the kit if you consider the price of the Italeri reissues. The Eduard set would be cheaper but still relatively expensive. And what if someone still has them in the stash and want to build them ?
Personally I've sorted the matter to a point by making resin clones of better parts from different kits, reason why all my F-104 models had copies of the Hasegawa nozzles. Today I'd probably clone the AMK Kfir nozzle that is very well detailed, but that would only work for some Starfighters... and in theory should have worked on the F-4E and J but for some reason all F-104 nozzles seem to be wider than Phantom nozzles even by the same company. Now was this the case on the real aircraft? I believe not but for some reason model companies think it was.

Speaking of older or newer kits, we should also keep in mind that not all subjects have been covered by the latest really modern kits and this includes a number of quite important types: speaking of Phantoms, there is still no slatted wing F-4E on the market better than the Hasegawa one (the Revell F-4F has too many inaccurate features to compare). Sure Fine Molds may at some point issue one but to date they have not. So what should someone who wants to build one such aircraft do ? It's either Hasegawa with aftermarket or Fine Molds with aftermarket.... and what about something like a Sea Harrier ? The best is still the Esci kit, that is as old as their Phantoms...

Speaking of thee F-4 Phantom, I've been in the planning stage for more than 10 years. Maybe closer to 20. During that time I gathered up the True Details F-4C,D and E weight on wheel set and the short exhaust they offered. Had a hobby shop once which barely held on. Most of the people who came in were those that had very little money but bought what they could. State and Federal rules changed and I closed my store because they had no extra cash. Anyway I have stocks of True Details, Verlinden, Xtra Parts SB Casting supplies left over. Over the years I still built for folks who wanted a specific subject. My F-4 supplies shrank.  So the diorama. My first duty assignment after tech school was Clark Air Force Base. The unit was the 405th TFW 523TFS flying the F-4D Phantom. Within 9 days I was on a C-141 to Udorn Royal Thai Air Force Base. Found this photo on line of an aerial shot of the section In was assigned to. The circle is what I want to do in the diorama.

FoxAreaUdornRTAFB

This is the revetment sections I have under construction.

IMG_4899

Since Zoukei-Mura came out with their F-4 series I saved to purchase 2 of the 4 phantoms I needed. I think 3 years ago. Last year I bought 2 Academy kits at a large amount less than the Zoukei-Mura kits. I have the ESCI F-4C/D kit with most of the available aftermarket stuff at the time. The phantom diorama is just the start. Plans have been in the works for all the duty stations I have been with in my 22 years of USAF service. The aircraft I've worked or loaded bombs on are the F-4D, B-52D, FB-111A, F-111F and the F-111D. Counting petals was not an issue unless those in the kit were grossly misrepresented.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

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