Jump to content

Messerschmitt Bf-110-G4 Nachtjager -putting lipstick on a Frog in 1/72 scale


Recommended Posts

Assuming this aircraft was brought to Hendon as is from the many aircraft captured after WW2, D5+RL's camouflage consists of RLM 76 surfaces with RLM 75 squiggles (Took this photo and recorded a short video of the plane in 2019 when I was in London).

 

FfWGXro.jpeg

 

Edited by Sturmovik
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that aircraft has been repainted several times since capture.

 

There are photos of it in original camo with RAF markings on the net if you search.

 

The interior is, I recall, in quite original state, apart from preservative wax of some sort (red colour)...

 

Matt

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Mattlow said:

 Ithink that aircraft has been repainted several times since capture.

I found this from the RAF's archives: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/78-AF-954-Bf-110G.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjsx8OF77j7AhV3q5UCHVc2ACMQFnoECCkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1dsHXLQZqZv3r0dPPHtbRM 

 

It's very interesting. It says the aircraft I posted was originally in a mottled camouflage of blue-grey uppers with light blue undersides and coded, with black letters, OL. Surrendered in May 1945 at Grove, Denmark. It was restored in 1976 with an original nightfighter camouflage and given the IRL codes D5+RL.

Edited by Sturmovik
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 18/11/2022 at 13:56, Jochen Barett said:

 

 ....  Later a document surfaced linking RL 83 to blue (I'm not convinced, but let's exlude this hiere!).

So, did the people who did the magic of determining "it is 83" in a B&W pictuer(!) (in times when everybody thought 83 is green!) mean "83 even in case it will later turn out that 83 was blue"?    

 

 

 

So, plastic modelling is a serious thing, maybe much more than just a matter of life and death, but unless there is convincing evidence it might pay to stay relaxed.

 

Looks good in blue? OK.        I have not convinced myself - I won't be happy with the result ... 

Doesn't look convincing in blue, will be redone in green or grey? OK.          yep 

Some guy on the internet complains? It's OK, we're not in North Korea.           

Some guy on the internet applauds? Great!      

 

I like the cockpit, looking forward to see your solution for the Lichtenstein antenna.

     I have no idea where this blue idea came from (maybe from a badly faded colour photo?) - or why AK paint decided that RLM 83 Dunkelgrün should be the colour of fountain pen ink - either way I don't like the result it gave me.

 

I just found a couple of stills from the video Mattlow posted above (which is G9+BO - the same aircraft in the artwork I was working from), and that reinforces the idea of a green overspray (RLM 82 Hellgrün or RLM 83 Dunkelgrün) - which makes more sense to me, although I may well try out an RLM 02  Grau as well - not sure I trust the Grauviolett paint from Ammo that i bought either - very violet, more so that the swatches I have found here (which are not all that definitive either)    https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/luftwaffe/colors.html  

 

As things stand, I have a yellow "B" I can use, but no "O" in the required size, so mine will be a fictitious aircraft, with a paint scheme which may be inspired by this one (perhaps) - but my acrylic pen is not fine enough to really reproduce this exact effect in 1/72 

 

I'm looking at photos of other variants of this kind of 'wellenmuster' overspraying - less ambitious versions 😃

 

It's not over till the exhaust stains are applied, and the matt varnish comes out to play ... 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

that RLM 75 Grey on the 110 at Hendon bears no resemblance to the markedly violet paint I received from Ammo (claiming to be Grauviolett RLM 75) , which looks quite grey on the internet - and anything but grey when it comes out of the bottle they sent me

 

My conclusion is that relying on claims from manufacturers of modeling paints is a fools game, so I will do some mixing & see where that gets me - thanks for the great links & encouragement from all of you :thumbsup:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mattloe - I just watched the video a couple of times - as you say, that is a different 110 from the same staffel (yellow B ) but that one has a werke nummer on the tailfin - but close enough for me

 

The pattern on the upper wings is wide & sparsely sprayed, the patter on the fuselage and rudders is finer & tighter (same aircraft in the wing shot?) - not sure, but that has given me ideas to work with - a great help !! 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No worries Steve...

 

Regarding variation in RLM 74 and 75 (and most other colours as the war progressed), there were/are recorded variations... Some could be due to changes in the availability of chemical constituents, others can be due to the thinner coats of paint being applied. Of course there's also weathering/fading. My policy is to go with research as far as you can go, then any further decisions can be based on what you think looks right.

 

RLM 83 being a blue colour stems from research which appeared to find this mentioned in a document. Bombers over water in the Mediterranean theatre. RLM as green, upp to that point, was based on the variations in late war greens... So, an assumption was made that (and I bet I get this wrong without a ref to hand) 81 as the brown violet colour which seemed to go from green to brown to violet brown, 82 as a dark green and 83 as a light green. Last I heard, it seems the two greens were quite variable and batches used by different aircraft manufacturers were quite different. I also recall that one issue was these new colours, as proscribed by the RLM, didn't actually have any colour chips. This would maybe have left manufacturers guesstimating from the names alone... though I'd have thought there'd be specific formulas for each colour.

 

I find it all fascinating.

 

Matt

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, stevesoutar said:

My conclusion is that relying on claims from manufacturers of modeling paints is a fools game

Colourcoats are noted for bothering, their owner, @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies regularly post here.    

 

RLM 75 according to paint chips I have is a mid grey with a slight violet tint.    


The Spanish paint companies seem particularly poor at paint matching.   There is a very interesting thread here

   

 

 

56 minutes ago, stevesoutar said:

I have no idea where this blue idea came from (maybe from a badly faded colour photo?) - or why AK paint decided that RLM 83 Dunkelgrün should be the colour of fountain pen ink - either way I don't like the result it gave me.

later research.  It's still being debated.

the reason for RLM 81/82/83 is there numbers were there are paint numbers, but what the colours were was not....  

From existing relics, and what colours were on them, the consensus then (about 40-3#45 years ago) was 81 is brown, or brown violet, 82 was dark green, 83 was bright green.

Since then it seems there was a brown 81, and a dark green 81...   there have been numerous debates on this

this is a neat summation

  

On 28/12/2018 at 18:22, Vonbraun said:

To date the only known official documentation of RLM 83 is in Sammelmitteilung 2, dated 15 August 1944, where it is listed among other dark shades, without describing the color, and in a RLM report dated November 1943, announcing the introduction of the Color RLM 83 Dunkel Blau as a camouflage color.  This document describes its use with RLM 72 for seaplanes and RLM 70 for land based aircraft operating in the Mediterranean.

 

Prior to the above mentioned documentation there were RLM messages documenting the development of a camouflage scheme exclusively for the Mediterranean Sea.   For this purpose a new dunkel blau was developed and tested.  During the development phase this color was identified as 300/III and after acceptance as RLM 83 Dunkel Blau.   

from, which also has info about AK Real Color and British tank colours.... 

 

I know you are new-ish here, and maybe are not up on all these new areas of research on Luftwaffe colours. 

 

FWIW, I think this gives a good idea of the colours

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/color/1.jg52_wh10.3.jpg

 

Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6-1.JG52-White-10-K

 

The fuselage is less washed out than the wing, base is RLM 76, with mottle of 74, 75, 02 (yellow grey) and 70 (by hanging lead) 

 

there is an interesting Smörgåsbord of colours on this K-4

Messerschmitt-Bf-109K4R3-9.JG3-White-8-W

 

RLM 75 is thought top be the colour to the right of the GI on the cowling, and also on the tail unit, which was built by a subcontractor, and is is in 82/75, the fuselage shows faded 81 and 82, with the greeny form of 76... 

 

Even with a reasonable colour image it can be hard to assign colours.     

 

some very late war Bf110 seems to have got a green disruptive

 

230101d1365362536t-captured-aircrafts-ee

 

 

 

230102d1365362517t-captured-aircrafts-ee

 

 

the image with 401 443 of the wing look to be 75 over 76.  These are still from color film shot by George Stevens, assigned to the US Army, he filmed in colour from just before D-Day to the summer of 1945.   The above are some still from this, and the colour balance is pretty good,  if you look at the grass, US uniforms, faces ...

 

Anyway, bit of a ramble, but may help? 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

RLM 75 according to paint chips I have is a mid grey with a slight violet tint.    

 

FWIW, I think this gives a good idea of the colours

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/color/1.jg52_wh10.3.jpg

 

 

the image with 401 443 of the wing look to be 75 over 76.  These are still from color film shot by George Stevens, assigned to the US Army, he filmed in colour from just before D-Day to the summer of 1945.   The above are some still from this, and the colour balance is pretty good,  if you look at the grass, US uniforms, faces ...

 

Anyway, bit of a ramble, but may help? 

Hi Troy - thanks .....    I had problems choosing a green I was happy with for my NF Mossie & Blenheim I built last year - so I am not surprised I have had trouble with my choices of luftwaffe colours as well

 

That stll shot of the 109 is great - I can see what I would identify as RLM 02 grey (matching my Vallejo bottle) RLM 82 Hellgrun (maybe a match for my AK bottle) and a blueish hue, which looks to as a possible match to what Ammo calls RLM 75 Grauviolett  - which is what I sprayed my upper surfaces with before I went mental with a biro all over it (that's what it looked like anyway)  🤔

 

it is very subjective, given the few colour photos we have, and knowing the differences between colour sensitivity in film stock & prints from Kodak vs Agfacolor back then

 

> The above are some still from this, and the colour balance is pretty good,  if you look at the grass, US uniforms, faces ...

 

I agree, the colours of the uniform jackets & trousers in the footage of the night fighter airfield are pretty close to uniforms I have seen in real life, and the grass & faces look fairly natural - so we should be able to trust the amount of blue, yellow & red in these pictures 

 

meaning the camo colours on my creation should end up looking like quite washed out tones ...  👍

 

Swatches collected here - https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/luftwaffe/colors.html - suggest Nightfighters had their own colour - RLM 77 Hellgrau - assigned, but the video footage does look like Hellblau as the base colour, and not a light grey. (also I haven't found a convincing example of what 77 Hellgrau might have looked like - the swatches suggest anything from a pale mouse grey up to RAF medium sea grey)

 

This article from chicago uni does suggest a reason why many luftwaffe colours changed as the war progressed - rare elements such as chromium & cobalt were in short supply (and needed for jet turbine metallurgy, for example) so paint pigments had to stop using certain elements - maybe why more washed out, and yellowed (zinc) colours started appearing.   

 

If this is the case, where DID they get a chemical to produce that deep blue when RLM 83 changed from a dunkelgrun to a dunkelblau?  - coz it was probably not cobalt, or copper (also in short supply) 

Edited by stevesoutar
minor edit into better english
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, stevesoutar said:

 

If this is the case, where DID they get a chemical to produce that deep blue when RLM 83 changed from a dunkelgrun to a dunkelblau?  - coz it was probably not cobalt, or copper (also in short supply)

 

Jürgen Kiroff could probably tell you, but ultramarine was widely used by several nations during WWII. Ultramarine has been more or less supplanted since WWII by phthalocyanine blue which is the one* made from copper.

 

 

* several, actually

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

... It's still being debated.

the reason for RLM 81/82/83 is there numbers were there are paint numbers, but what the colours were was not....  

From existing relics, and what colours were on them, the consensus then (about 40-3#45 years ago) was 81 is brown, or brown violet, 82 was dark green, 83 was bright green.

Since then it seems there was a brown 81, and a dark green 81...   there have been numerous debates on this

this is a neat summation

  

from, which also has info about AK Real Color and British tank colours.... 

 

 

 

This is an example of one of numerous hopeless muddles created and serves well to illustrate how difficult it can be to untangle a mess many decades in the making.

 

I've previously likened it to cooking, but perhaps the subject is more like discussing the food of an ancient culture who had their own language and there's nobody there left who actually knows to ask. There there are translated names of ingredients used, and scrolls or tablets of recipes, and people discussing recipes and who in society would have cooked this recipe with these ingredients versus that recipe with those ingredients. The terminology is taken for granted and used everywhere in derivative works. Unfortunately, the thing everyone calls "sugar" was actually a mis-translation for "mushroom" and now everyone's wondering why on earth mushrooms would have been used in derivative dishes.

 

The likelihood is that someone had an unnamed bright green colour and a spare name - RLM 83 - and made a logical deduction that the two went together. Everyone accepted that as sensible in the absence of any evidence to the contrary at the time, and the term "RLM 83" has been used for decades to describe something that was probably never RLM 83. The argument isn't that FW190s or Bf110s were blue instead of green, it's simply that the paint on them, regardless of colour, wasn't called "RLM 83" even though there are kit instructions and colour profiles on websites and in books galore claiming it was because the whole lot of them were predicated on an assumption that has now been shown to be false.

 

As you know, @Troy Smith, we've had a similar situation over in the Maritime section a few years ago when demonstrating that a "common sense" deduction made a few decades ago is quite incorrect (Admiralty Pattern 507B) which initially people are open to, then there's the torrent of all the deductions and colour call-outs from B&W photographs done since unravelling as people start to realise that almost everything they thought they knew about which paint name going where simply cannot be correct.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oversprayed - 2nd attempt with AK Air RLM82 Grun.   I need a little more practice with the pen, and I will maybe overspray slightly with hellblau once I have the patterns on.

 

Also I should apply the national markings first, then the camo avoids the white crosses ....  hmmm 

 

Also I am plotting how I can replace those antenna horns - maybe with wire and some modelling putty

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

Edited by stevesoutar
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After some pondering time, I had a 2nd go at this Dunkelgrun scheme

RAF Medium Sea Grey as a rough guess for RLM77 hellgrau (apparently a nightfighter grey - but I haven't found a good reference colour for this yet)

 

Partly because the Ammo grauviolett I used 1st time around just seemed far too pinkish when sprayed over the hellblau (sky blue) base colour - and the RLM83 dunkelgrun/dunkelblau (depending where you read about it) from AK was way too vivid for my liking

 

wings sort of ok, I added some crosses from an Xtradecal sheet, with a single coat of Vallejo acrylic matt varnish, then after a little more practice I have tackled the tighter pattern on the fuselage and rudders - once I have added some weathering I think this will be fine.  The camo spray was clearly done around the national markings in the US film clip, so i have tried to do the same here 

spacer.pngspacer.png

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am increasingly unhappy with the radar horns (which I was going to just accept & use as they are) - I had some fine gauge silver wire arrived recently, which I might use with some milliput to make up some more slender horns, using the wire to give some strength to them.

 

With the main colour scheme settled, I will pick my unit markings soon (probably fictitious), sort out the radar array, then weather & finish her off. 

 

I had 4 different sheets of decals on order - none of them contained a yellow B, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over that - this will definitely be representative of "a" Bf-110-G4. 

And I am itching to remove the masks & see what that glasshouse canopy looks like !

 

spacer.png

 

if it is horrible, i also have a Falcon vac-form canopy as a backup, although I haven't tried working with one of these yet, so it's in reserve for now

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

canopy unmasked - the radar sets, the crews oxygen masks & hoses are visible through the canopy - so I'm pleased with that - my masking technique is getting better with practice.

 

In the photos it stills looks a little rough up close, but at this scale it looks ok to the naked eye - my camera is quite unforgiving, and picks up every little imperfection - but I'm pleased with the result

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

next I have weathered the exhaust stacks - they need drilling open, then I will fit them.  After that I am going to try to scratch build better looking antenna horns (maybe tomorrow night), after that I set about adding some weathering. 

 

spacer.png

 

Photos don't show as much exhaust staining on the 110's wings from these shrouded exhausts, compared to the amount of muck on the wings you typically see on Ju-88s, He-219s and Lancasters whichhave put in lots flight hours 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a good close up of the exhaust shrouds - i need more pale ochre on mine (I have a basic 6 colour set of weathering powders from Revell, getting the hang using them still) 

 

spacer.png

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

A phantastic idea. As of now they are the "weak spots".

And becoming increasingly distressing every time I look at them ....   I have a cunning plan forming inside my brain  ... (best place for it perhaps) 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Using the nose cones from RAF rockets (taken from the Tamiya 1/72 Mosquito) to replace the ends on the radar horns - they are a tad overscale, but give the pointed tail I want.

Drilled & ready to accept brass antenna.

 

spacer.png

 

2 x brass .303 browning barrels fitted to represent the mg151 barrels in the nose 

FuG 202 Antennea assmbled & fitted 

 

spacer.png

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Nearing completion now - a few more poorly photographed shots of my cluttered work area 😛

 

I have left the tools I used tonight on display - the UV activated clear glue (found online), two sets of fine forceps used to bend the wire around a jewellers screwdriver to make the DF loop, the acrylic pen with the diluted RLM 82 green mix I used to represent the overspray pattern, and the set of tiny hand drills I used for opening up the exhaust shrouds

 

I just need to complete weathering (on the tailwheel) and a maybe very minor touch-ups somewhere ...   I haven't added the antenna below the fuselage, as that will get damaged easily, so will the very last item I add before my Bf-110G-4 Zerstorer gets her own skyhook

 

New tonight ... 

  • A scratch built fine wire DF loop to replace the overscale plastic one on the cockpit roof
  • underwing crosses added, and i touched up the black paint to match the underwing colour (1 x drop RAF Medium Sea Grey, 2 x drops matt black)
  • tail wheel and external fuel tanks added
  • aileron counterbalances added
  • Werke numbers added to the rudders (pinched off the Zvezda Ju-88G-6 sheet - so wrong digits for a 110, but I don't care - pedants comments not welcome)
  • Cockpit radio mast 
  • exhaust staining on the wings 
  • FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2 antennae painted

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

I will try to take a couple of less busy photos using natural daylight for posting into the For Inspection section 

 

This has been great fun, making one of the kits I never got hold of with my pocket money when I was a nipper.   The research has been fun, and really interesting, and I really appreciate the encouragement & assistance everyone here has given me.

 

 

The video footage gave me a really guide for getting the discolouring on the exhausts to look 'right' for my eyes - so special thanks to Matlow for posting those stills & the video footage

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And. ... once again  the camo still looks more subtle in person than it appears in these photos - my smartphone camera I think is highlighting the contrast more than the eyeball sees, and I have pretty good eyesight with my glasses on, and excellent close up sight when I take them off (thanks to nature giving me short-sighted modellers eyeballs) 

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

well chuffed - that'll do me for tonight 👍

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...