Messerschmitt Bf-110-G4 Nachtjager -putting lipstick on a Frog in 1/72 scale

[stevesoutar]

This is my first post on this site - although I have coming here for several years now for references & guidance.

 

Partly thanks to Covid lockdown, I have returned to the hobby after a break of around 40 years, I have had to learn new painting techniques with acrylics and an affordable airbrush kit from Hobbycraft (originally intended for decorating cakes)

 

I have made a couple of small single engined WW2 fighters, now I wanted to turn my hand to some of the models I made as young lad, and improve on them. Currently I am making a collection of WW2 nightfighers - with limited space I am going to stay with 1/72 scale for the time being.  I have made a Blenheim NF I with AI Mk III arrays, a Beaufighter NF II with AI MkIV arrays, and I am currently building a Heinkel He-219 Uhu and a Bf-110-G - all from vintage Frog kits.

 

This has given me a lot to research, and I have made a few minor mistakes (for example finding out the radar operator in the early beaufighters squatted with a greatcoat under his knees behind the pilot in the Blenheim, and not in the navigators seat in the cockpit as I had assumed and depicted when I scratch built the interior of my glasshouse 1940 nightfighter.

 

For my Bf-110G I splashed out on an Eduard Brassin  cockpit interior kit, and I have also amassed a small collection of antenna kits for Fug 202, 212 in brass or plastic - so heavy surgery was needed in the fuselage as I rejected the marshmallow puppets of the kit to allow me to install a full cockpit, with guns & radar equipment, and crewed by figures from PJ Productions in Belgium

 

It looks like I will have to set up a website where I can host my photos before I go any further, I will set something up in AWS & post a few photos of the first stages - starting from this 

 

The hideous "Mr Blobby" crew figures can be seen at the top right of the bag in this photo

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by stevesoutar
corrected the thread title

[Mark Harmsworth]

Good luck with your build and welcome. If it helps I use imgur as my photo hosting site.

 

A couple of suggestions if I may:

- change the title to '110' 😉

- do a post to the New Members section to say hello

 

all the best

Mark

 

 

[stevesoutar]

Hi Mark - thanks for the tip 

 

I just found I could set up a free account on https://postimg.cc/   -  but I wanted an excuse do build a small website on AWS as well, I am just waiting for a domain name to be registered.

 

Is it possible for me to edit the title? 

 

I just noticed my fat fingers have named all my photos as bf-100s as well - why ???    thanks for spotting that glaring howler   

Edited November 6, 2022 by stevesoutar

[Pete in Lincs]

37 minutes ago, stevesoutar said:

Is it possible for me to edit the title? 

Steve, Welcome back to the hobby. On your first post here you'll see three small black dots in the top right.

Click on there and the word edit will appear. You can then edit your writing/pictures AND the title. Dead simple. It has to be with us lot!

Enjoy. Regards, Pete

[jean]

Hi Steve,

 

welcome on BM. The best move you've made to date!

I built this kit decades ago and I went for the G-2. You are really throwing all the top goodies at the old lady. With all that, it is bound to look beautiful!

If it doesn't... think about knitting!

No seriously, the kit is pretty good, if lacking in details, like most FROG oldies. You will have fun.

 

JR

[Thom216]

Welcome to the Forum! Always nice to see modelers coming back.

[stevesoutar]

Thanks for the warm welcome from you guys ...

 

I haven't worked out how I can edit the title of this thread yet, although i CAN edit my comments when I misspell things using the magical three dots 

 

Meantime - here are some photos of the surgery I performed on the 110 fuselage halves to make room for the fabulous cockpit kit from Eduard - after some trepidation, soul-searching & black permanent marker, I eventually attacked with cutters, scalpel & a metalwork file until the sidewalls almost fitted

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by stevesoutar

[stevesoutar]

Some of the gear I want to fit into this narrow space

 

 

after a few evenings of trial and error - walk away, do something else ... come back & think again ...  with some more trimming & filing, this cockpit (intended I think for an Italieri kit) finally fitted - 1st rack of radar gear is in - crewmen selected & painting started

 

[stevesoutar]

I had drilled the cockpit to allow the two 20mm MG 151 Schräge Musik cannon to protrude, using a set of fine drills I bought of Ebay for a few quid  - then snapped 1mm off the muzzle of one othem because the hole was a little tight - curses !!    (they have been 'adjusted' and are both the same length now)

 

Cockpit detail is 90% complete now, and the crew are ready, & they fit inside the canpory - I had to reduce the height of the navigator & gunners webbing seat a bit to achieve this, & needed a Japanese pilot from PJ productions for the Radar operator, as the PJ German aircrew are a tad wider, & elbows were interfering with the clutter in the central cockpit

 

I just need to touch up a few details, making sure some of the detail has enough contract to be visible through the canopy (I hated empty barren cockpits when I made kits as a kid) 

 

 

 

I haven't found a definitive description of the clothing worn by nightfighter crews mid-war - so these guys have a mixture of blue uniforms (actually Humbrol RAF Blue) - the pilot has a leather jacket, and the rear gunner is wearing tan overalls with his luftwaffe uniform jacket - although I will be amazed if I can see anyones trousers without a spotlight once the kit is assembled - but I know the detail is there, and that makes me happy.   

 

Close up pictures make my painting look rougher than it seems when I look at them with my eyes 

 

(I haven't lost any sleep getting the rudder pedals added) 

 

 

 

[Shorty84]

Welcome to the Forum. Great to see you are seriously upgrading this old kit, not bad after 40 years  Seems you progress well, will be interesting what you can get out of the old girl.

 

Cheers

Markus

[AdrianMF]

That’s certainly an upgrade from FROG’s customary two comfy chairs!

 

Looking forward to more…

 

[edit] just looked at the instructions on scalemates - they didn’t even give you comfy chairs! Sheesh…

 

Regards,

Adrian

[stevesoutar]

Crew in place - canopy can be fixed tomorrow, then assembly & painting begin. 

 

Despite my surgery the fuselage fitted well together, just a light trim of the seam, no gaps to be filled apart from the nose panel housing the upper cannon

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by stevesoutar

[elger]

very nice!

[Walter]

Cool to see another Nachtjager. I have to say there's no point in getting a cockpit detail set for this when looking at the completed cockpit with pilots in, there's not much to see. With a little bit of scratch building you would achieve the same result especially when the glass gets installed. I'm not saying you did a bad job just pointing out I wouldn't be doing it myself but its good to see because I can see what I would do and not do. 

 

I've built a few 110 Nachtjager's and will still continue to build them, one of my favourite planes. I'll keep a look out for the next progress posts. Welcome to the forum.

 

Cheers

Walter

Edited November 7, 2022 by Walter

[Mark Harmsworth]

14 hours ago, stevesoutar said:

 

I haven't worked out how I can edit the title of this thread yet, although i CAN edit my comments when I misspell things using the magical three dots 

It should be the same three dots - as long as you do that on your first post - that opens the title box.

 

Nice work so far. And if you like a detail set then go for it. I think it looks great - feel free to ignore any comments above that perhaps seem unnecessary.

Mark

[stevesoutar]

Hi Walter - I agree with you to some degree - I have skipped some of the cockpit details - the rudder pedals, and the minute brass levers for the cockpit didn't make it to the party. For the Uhu, I have scratch built some gubbins, but with much less canopy railing to interfere with the view inside, that one might end up looking a bit clunkier, as my scratchbuilding foo is not that great yet. (as you will see when I pick up that project soon)

 

But I was curious - I bought Frog He-219 & bf-110 nightfighter kits at the same time, and the vast expanse of emptiness in the Heinkel offended me greatly, so I went online looking for upgrades - I found a brass etched detail set for the Uhu, and then stumbled this fabulous OCD-friendly upgrade for the 110G night fighter cockpit

 

I have spent months pondering colours, researching old photos, and reading everything I can find - including buying old copies of Profile magazines 

 

I have thoroughly enjoyed building this cockpit bay, and was very pleased when I finally managed to shoehorn it in to this old kit. I tried to shave down the sides at the lower edge, unsuccessfully because the ammo lockers, navigators tables and other clutter kept interfering, so I eventually bit the bullet & trimmed about 0.5mm from the upper edges  -  I also had to hack the front step under the nose panel to allow the pilots floor to go forward far enough, & the pilot lost his feet !! 

 

These parts marked in red were removed or hacked away 

 

 

I used a lighter grey for the interior colour than the real thing, as I wont get as much light inside, so I made sure I have some contrast to outline the equipment and racks 

 

This cockpit set has more than doubled the cost of this model, but I have also spunked some cash away on brass radar antennae as well - old age means I have the money I could never afford to throw around when I was a spotty youth  

 

If I ever make a static Bf-110 nightfighter with wheels down, and maybe some ground crew fussing around it, it will probably have a vacuformed canopy with open panels - so don't surrender your shares in Eduard just yet

 

(my figure painting skills haven't recovered to the standards I could achieve when I was at school - and they might never do) 

Edited November 8, 2022 by stevesoutar

[stevesoutar]

Did a test fit this morning on the wings - found another couple of small areas inside the rear central panel that needed remove to fit in place now that the cockpit floor is almost at the correct height

 

 

 

Removed these, and the lower & upper wings fit now

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by stevesoutar

[stevesoutar]

Upper wings fit now as well.    I am not convinced I have the masking right at the rear of the canopy - I need to find some decent photos of a G-4 cockpit (with the twin MG 151s)

 

[stevesoutar]

I have finally decided on a colour scheme - this model will be based on this BF-110 G-4 "G9+BO" photographed in Fritzlar, Hungary in 1945

 

 

According to some notes I found scanned from a book, this colour scheme is solid RLM 75 (Grauviolet) upper surfaces, with RLM 76 (Hellgrau) sides & underneath, then oversprayed with RLM 83 overspray on the upper surfaces - apparently a 'wider' pattern on the wings, then much tighter on the fuselage.

 

Colour artwork depicts this as Hellgrau with what looks like black or dunkelgrun overspray - but I will go with the RLM75 & 83 as described - as those are both paint  colours that were mentioned as being employed late war to make the nightfighters less conspicuous on the ground during daylight hours

 

My first attempt with an acrylic paint pen, loaded with RLM83 - called 'dunkelgrun' the colour I have received from AK is a distinct dark blue colour - whereas my AK RLM 82 is a medium dark green - similar to RAF green.

 

Masked up, to have the Hellgrau tidied up on the fuselage sides

 

Ready for the maniac with the twitching spraygun - base colours done

 

Bite the bullet - I have never attempted to reproduce a finish like this before - I bought an acrylic marker pen & filled it with 30 drops Vallejo thinners, and 6 drops of AK RLM83  

 

Tonight I am happy with the look - I will sleep on it, and take another look in the daylight.  The pen tip is not fine enough, nor my hand movements small enough to fully copy the original - but maybe close enough?  Or will I overspray it & try again in a few days time? 

 

 

This pattern is hard to do well - it looks like the back page of a school book !!   

 

I do reserve the right to change my mind ....  we will see 

[Sturmovik]

1 hour ago, stevesoutar said:

dark blue colour

There's a dedicated thread in the WW2 aircraft section mentioning RLM 83 could have been a blue colour instead of green.

 

I think @Jochen Barett and @Troy Smith may be of better help than me.

[Thom216]

Love the 'pit upgrades and the squiggles! Great job.

[Jochen Barett]

10 hours ago, Sturmovik said:

+++

 

I think @Jochen Barett and @Troy Smith may be of better help than me.

 

Sorry, I fear my input/contribution would turn out to be counterproductive-XXL (as of now).

I'd remove the "blue" "RLM 83" and redo the job with dark green or dark grey.

There are two steps in this game I doubt:

- identification of the dark squiggly line color (is it grey or green? And if so, what RLM code? 74? 71? 81? 82?)

- was RLM 83 blue (as one source suggstes) and any green declared to be 83 was 70/71/80/81/82 and not 83 - or was 83 green in those days and "83 = blue" was just a temporary suggestion and any darkish blue camo "observed" on Luftwaffe planes was "something else"?

But I do not have a single tiny piece of evidence.

So please: Do ignore me. I have no idea what color is represented in that B&W photograph and I'll get over it in case somebody builds a model that scratches my eyes like pepper and pieces of a broken mirror.

[stevesoutar]

38 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

Sorry, I fear my input/contribution would turn out to be counterproductive-XXL (as of now).

I'd remove the "blue" "RLM 83" and redo the job with dark green or dark grey.

There are two steps in this game I doubt:

- identification of the dark squiggly line color (is it grey or green? And if so, what RLM code? 74? 71? 81? 82?)

- was RLM 83 blue (as one source suggstes) and any green declared to be 83 was 70/71/80/81/82 and not 83 - or was 83 green in those days and "83 = blue" was just a temporary suggestion and any darkish blue camo "observed" on Luftwaffe planes was "something else"?

But I do not have a single tiny piece of evidence.

So please: Do ignore me. I have no idea what color is represented in that B&W photograph and I'll get over it in case somebody builds a model that scratches my eyes like pepper and pieces of a broken mirror.

Thanks Jochen  - when I was looking for paints in the RLM colours I was surprised to find so much variation.   I have even found sources explaining that many of the colours changed specification throughout the war, so that RLM02 in 1941 is a very colour compared RLM02 in 1944 for example.

 

I am not convinced about the 'blue' RLM83 as it has turned out - it doesn't look like a dunkelgrun at all, but maybe in 1945 it wasn't ?   it is also possible for green in a photo or artwork to fade to a washed out blue over time.   This shade of blue doesn't fit well with the rest of the palette of colours you see on luftwaffe aircraft, in my eyes 

 

Also I am less bothered about turning out a concours 100% representation of a particular aircraft at some specific date & time - more interested in producing something representative that looks & feels 'right' - this doesn't feel right yet.   I have also read (referring to Ju-88G4-6 I built recently) that these overspray patterns done by the groundcrews would vary between different aircraft in the same staffel, and sometimes might use RLM75, 82 & 83 all on top of each other (similar to colour mixtures in the WW1 German lozenge camo)

 

I think I want to overspray with the Hellgrau and Grauviolett once more, & try again with a dark green (or maybe mix some green into this blue AK colour) - this model is an experiment ....   it may be that the AK colour is a late (1944/45) version of RML83 - which might be green in earlier versions of the standard - I did find a colour chart once with example swatches from different wartime paint suppliers of each colour, I have that hardcopy stashed away, so I will dig that back out.

 

I found this short list of colours, with suggested mixes using tamiya paints, in another thread on here - 

 

 

RLM 02 Grau XF22:1 + XF49:1 or just XF22

RLM 65 Hellblau XF23:1 + XF2:1

LM 70 Schwartzgrun XF27

RLM 71 Dunkelgrun XF62:1 + XF49:1

RLM 74 Graugrün XF24:3 + XF27:2

RLM 75 Grauviolett XF24:5 + XF50:1

RLM 76 Lichtblau XF2:7 + XF23:1 + XF66:2

RLM 79 Sandbraun XF59:3 + XF64:1

RLM 80 Olivegrün XF58

RLM 81 Braunviolett XF51:1 + XF64:2

RLM 82 Lichtgrün XF5 or XF5:1 + XF2:1 or XF5:1 +XF3:1 (Bright Green)

RLM 83 Dunkelgrün XF61 or XF24:1 + XF51:1 (Dark Green)

Edited November 18, 2022 by stevesoutar

[Jochen Barett]

Habit is stronger than gravity ...

 

When you grew up with "110 Nightfighter 76 undersides, top 75 and 74 and maybe the older drop tank was 65"

https://www.flugzeug-lexikon.de/RAF_Museum/Messerschmitt_Bf_110/messerschmitt_bf_110.html

 

that's what you are used to. It doesn't neccessarily mean it is 100% accurate.

 

And maybe all the education you (I) received in the olden days was Frog's box art ... (no pocket money to spend on books, no trips to museums far away)

https://www.kitreviewsonline.de/kit-archaeologie-heute-messerschmitt-bf-110-g-4-im-massstab-172-von-revell-h-95/

 

And in the olden days people were used to read "the usual explanation" for 81/82/83 and so they used these codes to "identify" colors in B&W photographs - still doubtfull to say "74" or "pick one of 81/82/83 or maybe 70/71". Later a document surfaced linking RL 83 to blue (I'm not convinced, but let's exlude this hiere!).

So, did the people who did the magic of determining "it is 83" in a B&W pictuer(!) (in times when everybody thought 83 is green!) mean "83 even in case it will later turn out that 83 was blue"?

 

I just remember when the Ta 152 came into the market (Frog 1/72). I did mine in 74/75/76 (Humbrol Authentics, following the Frog instructions "zis is an order!") and just a few years later I was informed of late war greens as THE late war Luftwaffe dayfighter scheme (what a bummer!). Some people repainted their Ta 152s, I was just frustrated. A few years later "evidence" surfaced the first Ta 152s were done in the old 74/75/76 (probably just the first batch / prototypes not the one with the tactical markings I chose, who knows?).

 

So, plastic modelling is a serious thing, maybe much more than just a matter of life and death, but unless there is convincing evidence it might pay to stay relaxed.

 

Looks good in blue? OK.

Doesn't look convincing in blue, will be redone in green or grey? OK.

Some guy on the internet complains? It's OK, we're not in North Korea.

Some guy on the internet applauds? Great!

 

I like the cockpit, looking forward to see your solution for the Lichtenstein antenna.

[Mattlow]

It's always good to have a colour image, and even though the colours shift and this isn't the actual machine you're doing, this machine was also at Fritzlar.

 

It's clearly 75 over 76 with a squiggle of a green colour, prob one of the late war greens, but that doesn't matter as you have the colour to aim for here...

 

http://Screenshot 2022-11-18 221903 by Matt Low, on Flickr

 

Screen shot from a lovely bit of restored film with Luftwaffe machines and nice colour of a Typhoon..

 

 

Matt