Seafire IIcs fitted with Vokes tropical filters

[detail is everything]

MKIIc MB244 6Q 899 NAS

 

There is a current topic looking at Seafire Ibs fitted with Vokes tropical filters and it drew my mind to the subject of IIcs fitted with the same.

 

Back in March 2002, Paul Lucas published a Seafire WWII camouflage article in Scale Aircraft Modelling, accompanied by some artwork to illustrate typical camouflage and markings. 

 

In June 2009, he re-visited the subject in Model Aircraft Monthly.

 

In both articles, MKIIc MB244 6Q, the subject of a rare WWII colour photograph of 899 NAS Seafires on HMS Indomitable in March 1943 at Scapa Flow (evidence item 1 in the list below), was depicted with no Vokes filter.

 

 

Another photo apparently taken shortly afterwards by the same photographer shows other airframes without Vokes filters present on the same flight deck as MB244? goes down on the lift (evidence item 1 in the list below). 6K could be MB198 and 6L is MB200 (see hanger photograph).  Note what appears to be artwork below the cockpit of the aircraft on the lift.

 

 

 

I let it go the first time, but after the second time, I wrote in, pointing out the photographic evidence. My letter and a revised profile was duly published by the magazine in the MAM August 2009 letters page.  Despite the correction, the erroneous profile was repeated in the Aviation Workshop publication 'On Target 5 - Supermarine Seafire Mk. Ib - Mk. 47' by Steve Freeman 2004 (presumably based on Pauls SAM article of 2002) and more recently 'Spitfire Revisited' by Trevor Snowden 2012 (which is a great shame as it is a very detailed analysis of spitfire/seafire camouflage and markings).  You couldn't argue that the erroneous profiles of MB244 6Q were as it would have looked like during Operation Husky as the airframe was lost in May when it spun into the Firth of Clyde i.e. before the carrier and its squadrons left the UK.  If they had used MB200 6L to illustrate their information, they would have both been fine.

 

It appears that 899NAS had several airframes with Vokes filters (which would have incurred a weight and drag penalty) at Scapa Flow prior to the carrier and its squadrons leaving for the Mediterranean and the invasion of Sicily (Operation Husky).  It looks as though by the time of Operation Husky in July, the Vokes filters (or the aircraft fitted with them) were gone or very rare so I assume the squadron was in the process of replacing the filters in March? 

 

I wondered if those Indomitable Seafires seen with blue (as opposed to the normal TSS Sky) undernose panels were airframes which had had their Vokes filters removed in the field and replacement panels from RAF stocks used? (would assume the oil tank be in the colour it was originally painted in, within the Vokes filter aerodynamic firing? 

 

 

MKIIc MB195 6S 899 NAS

 

One of the photos I referred to as proof that there were MKIIcs with Vokes filters fitted, present at the time MB244 was photographed, was a photo of two pilots posing by the cockpit of a Seafire with said filter and squadron number 6. It also had a nice bit of artwork under the windscreen (evidence item 2 in the list below).

 

A photograph of the same aircraft with a pilot climbing in to the cockpit, appeared in Modellers Datafile 3 Merlin Seafires (evidence item 3 in the list below).

 

Another from the series is

 

 

Further photos can be seen in the Fleet Air Arm Legends series No. 1 Supermarine Seafire (evidence item 7 in the list below).

 

However the identity of this particular aircraft would remain a mystery until I happened to be looking at an article about Seafire development on the Armoured Aircraft Carriers web site and I looked at the imbedded Pate Newsreel 'Presenting Seafires 1943’ (evidence item 4 in the list below) which can be viewed on You Tube. 

 

Low and behold this footage showed a pilot getting into and out of the cockpit of the very same aircraft (clearly the same aircraft by position and artwork). The serial, squadron number and aircraft letter is shown to be MB195 6S as the pilot walks along the fuselage to climb up into and later, climbs out of the cockpit. 

https://youtu.be/f-BuAkwB5hI?t=8 and https://youtu.be/f-BuAkwB5hI?t=46

 

I then noticed a further photograph of this aircraft in From the Cockpit Series No. 13 Seafire (evidence item 6 in the list below), which confirms the serial and code.

 

Furthermore, another photo in an article about Indomitable on the Armoured Aircraft Carriers web site (evidence item 5 in the list below) shows MB195 on Indomitable’s lift confirming the serial and squadron code and extent of upper camouflage on side of the Vokes filter.

 

 

Evidence table

1

Warpaint Series No. 72 Merlin Seafire – cover

June 2009 Model Aircraft Monthly – between p36 and 37

Seafire book by David Brown – cover

Colour photo of MB244 –shows clearly the Vokes filter with camouflage running down the side of the filter.

Another photo taken a minute or so later by the same photographer shows other unidentified airframes without Vokes filters present on the flight deck as MB244 goes down on the lift

 

2

From the Cockpit Series No. 13 Seafire –p26

Also Seafire book by David Brown – photo 29

b/w Photograph MB195 - pilots posing by cockpit taken at the same time as the Pate News footage –shows a clear image of the artwork – looks like a black and white cat next to something, possibly a white mouse or cheese?  Below is some ones rendition of the artwork

 

 

3

Modellers Datafile 3 Merlin Seafires – p37

b/w Photograph MB195 pilot climbing into cockpit, taken at the same time as the Pate News footage was being filmed or possibly a still taken from it

 

4

Pate News –‘ Presenting Seafires 1943’ 

also Armoured Carriers website on Seafire development   

Footage between 7-13 seconds and between 44-51 seconds

b/w footage MB195 pilot getting into and out of cockpit.  Serial and squadron code shown as pilot walks up to climb up into and later, climb out of the cockpit.

 

5

Armoured Carriers website Indomitable page

b/w Photograph MB195 starboard side profile on lift confirms Serial and squadron code and extent of upper camouflage on side of Vokes filter.

 

6

From the Cockpit Series No. 13 Seafire –p24/25

b/w Photograph MB195 being pushed forward- confirms Serial and aircraft identifier letter

 

7

Fleet Air Arm Legends series No. 1 Supermarine Seafire – p28-29

b/w Photograph MB195 - pilots posing by cockpit taken at the same time as the Pate News footage – one photo taken from in front of the wing, though the pilots hide most of the Vokes filter.

 

8

Photo of blue nose Seafire

Colour photo

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by detail is everything
typo

[Our Ned]

Impressive research, detail is everything, but one detail may warrant a second look - "... HMS Indomitable in March 1943 at Scapa Flow ...".  The hills in the background of the first two colour photos show what appears to be a wooded area to the right of the escort carrier in the background (HMS Biter) - and there are precious few trees in Orkney.  The shape of the hills look similar to the view from Toward Point on the Lower Firth of Clyde, looking east or southeast.

[detail is everything]

Thanks,

 

I was going by picture captions and I bow to your local knowledge

[Graham Boak]

Looking at Indomitable's Squadrons, they seem to have joined the carrier in early March from Macrihanish, which points to the Clyde.  Hatston is mentioned both before this period and the end of the month, but not for all units.  As a long-shot qualification, although woods are rare in Orkney, there is one on Hoy but not I think extending as far as the shoreline.  They do tend to be in sheltered valleys!

[Phoenix44]

Very interesting. The first two photos show such large variation in camouflage colour and a clear orange shift on the roundels in the top one. Good illustration of the problems of colour prints. I like the idea of the blue under the Volkes filter too but I suspect that's one of these "we'll never know why" questions.

[detail is everything]

out of interest, if the under nose oil tank on a MK.IIc Seafire, was an integral part of the airframe, how did the filter fairing fit over it, whilst remaining flush with the nose?

 

 

[EwenS]

Earlier thread with all the diagrams to explain it.

 

 

[detail is everything]

Many thanks.

 

Now I know what is under the skin!

 

It doesn't quite answer my question though.

 

My understanding is that where there are three under nose panels, the middle one is actually the bottom of the oil tank.

 

I'm guessing that the size and shape of the oil tank was changed so it sat inside the filter fairing?

 

 

I'm no Spitfire expert, so happy to be enlightened (again)  

 

 

 

[captnwoxof]

On 11/9/2022 at 4:30 AM, detail is everything said:

My understanding is that where there are three under nose panels, the middle one is actually the bottom of the oil tank.

 

I'm guessing that the size and shape of the oil tank was changed so it sat inside the filter fairing?

More than that. The entire tank was different.

Tropicalization of the single-stage Merlin Spitfire/Seafire was a more complex matter than generally realized. Fitting the large fairing for the Volkes Aero-Vee filter required a complete rebuild of the lower nose. As you note, as originally designed the oil tank formed the center of a three section aerodynamic fairing below the nose. In order to fit  the Vokes filter fairing, the tank and the fairing sections fore and aft of it all had to go. A new, larger (8.55 vs 7.5 gal) oil tank, shallower and of an entirely different shape was fitted. It was completely internal and hidden from view by the filter housing. This arrangemnt was regarded as superior, and an internal oil tank was used on all subsequent Spitfire/Seafire marks, tropicalized or not.

 

 

If the filter and housing were discarded, the original style oil tank would have to be retrofitted and undernose fairing sections obtained. Replacing these components could be done, but it's a big job. The speculation that it was (and that the rebuilt lower nose got a fresh coat of an unknown shade of blue paint) is not without merit, but I haven't seen anything in writing to confirm it.   

As to that blue color, it does not appear to match any RN color. If it was a MAP color, it would likely be Sky Blue, but I don't know any reason why this would have been used when the correct MAP Sky  would more likely have been available. Still, we have the evidence,of the color itself, and so it can be modelled correctly, even if we don't kow what to call it!

 

Many of the photos of Indomitable working up in 1943 were taken by Charles Brown. Several 899 NAS Seafires displayed artwork, MB195/ 6-S being perhaps the most photographed. Here's the best image I have of the cartoon: A cat sitting next to a block of cheese from which a bite has been taken. There's no mouse in sight, just a smug smile on the face of the cat.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by captnwoxof
clarity

[Phoenix44]

Interesting picture. Is the thin bar to the left (forward) of the door usual on Seafires? I don't recall seeing it on Spitfires? I can't make out what us scrawled on the door beyond DX - wonder what's it mean?

[captnwoxof]

4 hours ago, Phoenix44 said:

Interesting picture. Is the thin bar to the left (forward) of the door usual on Seafires? I don't recall seeing it on Spitfires

It is the external fishplate that reinforced the main fuselage longeron. The airframe was reinforced at various points to enable catapult launches and handle the stress of carrier operations better This was introduced on the IIC, the first production varient of the Seafire. Seafire IBs, converted from Spitfire airframes, didn't have it.

 

See the picture of MB200 in the hangar deck that is in the original post above.

Edited November 11, 2022 by captnwoxof

[stevehnz]

13 hours ago, captnwoxof said:

It is the external fishplate that reinforced the main fuselage longeron. The airframe was reinforced at various points to enable catapult launches and handle the stress of carrier operations better This was introduced on the IIC, the first production varient of the Seafire. Seafire IBs, converted from Spitfire airframes, didn't have it.

 

See the picture of MB200 in the hangar deck that is in the original post above.

Not seeing any of the images you've linked to above, just get this message.

This dsm04pap002files.storage.live.com page can’t be found

No webpage was found for the web address: https://dsm04pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mvxSKsQDftGjtfRSyR3n1DCwJuNrHcnTVJWMhldiBcJPDXG7B8qafrP9kwvBQx-y2dDJEIKQ9xg1YeI4jJyvNzxp0vVr-5NSrZk9gbVPlC4k-EvEMzCNSNEdDrB0CI4wR3WMKwDULsg88sOUnlhC8Rwmf99DyKUfhYEEDlcPhr9EppMfKz7MhgytnxQ6in5Hf?width=660&height=602&cropmode=none

I'd sure like to be able to see them.

Steve.

[gingerbob]

I don't even get that, just a line of gibberish (code) that produces nothing.

[Fukuryu]

This is the pic @captnwoxof was referencing above:

 

 

HTH.

[detail is everything]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:57 AM, stevehnz said:

Not seeing any of the images you've linked to above, just get this message.

I can see the images when I look at the topic on my phone, but not on my computer.

 

Shame as your shot of the art work is the best I've seen

[stevehnz]

Not even seeing them on my phone or Firefox, wonder if @captnwoxof has a better way to show these?

Steve.

[ClaudioN]

Another Mk.IIC with Vokes filter, I believe:

THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (A 17076) IWM Non Commercial License

Definitely no serial visible. Probably not MB113, that had been ø6B during Torch.

[detail is everything]

On 11/13/2022 at 8:20 PM, ClaudioN said:

Definitely no serial visible.

 Fleet Air Arm 885NAS Seafire Ib K MB345, G (or C) MB360 and IIc (going by the outboard cannon stub) Ø6B (serial not visible - sometimes the serial was presented in v small 2"? font high up on the rear fuselage but I don't even see that) Trops aboard HMS Formidable with destroyer HMS Venomous in the background.  

 

Interesting that the IIc has the full ship/squadron/aircraft code presentation, compared to the Ibs simpler aircraft letter presentation. This seems to apply to other IIcs being used by the NAS at the time.

 

Another couple of photos, possibly taken at the same time from the other direction?  No serial visible on Ø6B.  What colour is behind the serial numbers of the Mk. Ibs? Upper camouflage travels down the side of MB345's filter fairing.  The side of Ø6B's filter fairing seems to be Sky. Although there is severe loss of camouflage paint in the engine cover area, there seems to be a clear demarcation line where the under nose panel starts.

 

 

 

The previous photo submitted by Claudio in large format. See how the camouflage travels down the side of the filter fairing of the nearest unidentified aircraft (possibly MB360). I'm not so sure about the sky side of the filter fairing on this side of Ø6B, but again, there seems to be a demarcation line where the under nose panel starts.

Edited November 14, 2022 by detail is everything

[ClaudioN]

Yes, the three photos are part of the same group and were taken around Gibraltar between 20 and 30 of May, 1943. My understanding is that on ø6B the upper camouflage ends with the cowling side panel, whereas the entire Vokes filter fairing is in the underside colour. Overall, cowling panels on ø6B are all heavily weathered, making interpretation harder, but I think a standard pattern is the most likely interpretation.

On the two Mk. IBs the upper surface camouflage demarcation appears to be at the lower end of the Vokes filter. A few other photos seem to confirm this.

 

Whichever side you look at ø6B, it has no readable serial. During Torch, 'B' was MB113 and had the 'ROYAL NAVY'  title changed to 'U.S. NAVY', as shown here (first time I see this on a Seafire). I considered the possibility that the subject of the photo is MB113 repainted (the rear fuselage is rather clean, possibly new paint?), but I think the shape of the 'B' is different.

 

[Troy Smith]

On 14/11/2022 at 15:18, ClaudioN said:

Whichever side you look at ø6B, it has no readable serial. During Torch, 'B' was MB113 and had the 'ROYAL NAVY'  title changed to 'U.S. NAVY', as shown here (first time I see this on a Seafire). I considered the possibility that the subject of the photo is MB113 repainted (the rear fuselage is rather clean, possibly new paint?), but I think the shape of the 'B' is different.

 

Great spot.

To good not to screen shot and have here 

Seafire MB113 B Torch by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

[captnwoxof]

On 11/13/2022 at 3:15 PM, stevehnz said:

Not even seeing them on my phone or Firefox, wonder if @captnwoxof has a better way to show these?

Steve.

My apologies for the unreadable posts. I'm trying to trouble shoot. Is this any better?

 

[stevehnz]

Yes, very much so.

Steve.

[captnwoxof]

Okay, let's try again. Here are the two diagrams, the Vokes filter and the different oil tanks. 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by captnwoxof

[Magpie22]

Further to @captnwoxof 's pics above, these below may be of some help. They are of Spitfire VC A/C but, the installation on 'tropicalised' Seafires was the same.

 

 

First up, a line drawing with slightly clearer captions to the drg above.

 

What is not clear from the diagram is that air was drawn through the filter at all all times. The shutter lever control could be operated to close the ram air intake,

allowing hot air to be drawn from the front of the engine compartment. This inefficient arrangement was corrected on the "Aboukir" filter housings and, on the later

filter housing fitted to Mk.IX and MK.VIII aircraft.

 

Please note that labelling the filter housing on the Spitfire VC as a "Vokes Filter" and that on the later Spitfires as an  "Aerovee" filter is not correct.

Vokes made two principal types of engine filter for aircraft at this time, the Aerovee, which was a dry type filter for liquid cooled engines and, the Three-ply, which

was a viscous type for radial engines. So Spitfires were fitted with Vokes Aerovee filter - only the Supermarine designed installation and housing differed.

 

 

Now, climbing down from the soapbox, I have attached shots of the large oil tank installed on 'tropicalised' Spitfire VC A/C.

 

 

As noted by captnwoxof, these were deeper than the standard tank and it was not a simple job to re-fit the standard under-nose cowlings.

The large tank would have to be removed, the original tank re-installed, the plumbing revised, and the original air intake re-installed.

The alternative would be to do what the Aussies did. That was to replace filter cowling with a more pigeon chested one that fitted

over the large oil tank. What the Aussies failed to take into account, was that the engine air intake that mated with tropical filter had a larger

cross-section, (as the air, having passed through the filter, was now moving at a slower speed), and this resulted in  a miss-match with

the carburettor that produced some rough engine running at times.

 

Peter M

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Magpie22
spelling

[stevehnz]

Maybe not relevant to Seafires with tropical filters but it seems that 103MU, the originators of the Aboukir filter, got around the hassles with the larger oil tank for fabricating a revised under cowling to fit over it, as seen in this photo with Ian Gleed's well know Spitfire Vb, IR-G showing the small kink it put into the cowl line, though maybe not with all conversions looking at the next machine in line.

Steve.