Seafire Ib markings, Torch

[mstares]

Hello,

 

I have started a Seafire IB, using the 1/48 Tamiya Spitifire Vb Trop as a starting point. I am debating between finishing it as a 885 Squadron aircraft as seen on HMS Formidable around Operation Husky or as a 'defaced' 🙂 801 Squadron bird on HMS Furious during Torch. A few decent pics exist of 885 Ib examples in mid 1943, but photos of  801 Squadron Ib examples during November 1942 are nearly non existent (Same situation with 807 Squadron during Torch ... I prefer to work on a documented subject). 

 

Would be appreciative if anyone can point me to either photos or newsreel footage of Ib examples during Torch?

 

While digging through the IWM site for clues, I noticed something in the extreme left of a couple well known colour shots of Martlet operations off of HMS Formidable during Torch.

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188317

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188318

 

I had not noticed that before and to my eye that is a Seafire with a blue spinner , yellow leading edge wing ID markings, Vokes filter and and temporary US star marking (Some IWM newsreel footage of Martlet landing Ops likely shows the same aircraft in the same spot, as seen from the port side but rather silhouetted).

 

Any thoughts on type (Ib or IIc) and Squadron?

 

Here is where my conjecture starts - 885 was on Formidable  at this time, (in theory only having IIcs at this point.), but 885 aircraft were typically photographed with light (white or sky) not dark (in this case blue) spinners.

 

Vokes filters were more common, (but not exclusive to) on Ibs than IIcs at this time (885 IIcs photographed around this time seemed to have the standard inlet). 

 

Lastly many of 885's IIcs  had the RAF style sky ID band on the rear fuselage, and some had the yellow wing ID strips (Like the blue spinnered subject, can't tell if that has the band). Not sure if I have seen Ibs with those ID markings (Saw a reference somewhere to these being an artifact of prior service in the UK or home waters).

 

Any thoughts, facts, conjecture etc would be welcome.

 

Thanks

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

13 hours ago, mstares said:

I had not noticed that before and to my eye that is a Seafire with a blue spinner , yellow leading edge wing ID markings, Vokes filter and and temporary US star marking (Some IWM newsreel footage of Martlet landing Ops likely shows the same aircraft in the same spot, as seen from the port side but rather silhouetted).

good spot

NORTH AFRICAN OPERATIONS, NOVEMBER 1942. © IWM (TR 284) IWM Non Commercial License

 

 

NORTH AFRICAN OPERATIONS, NOVEMBER 1942. © IWM (TR 285) IWM Non Commercial License

 

 

members who maybe able to help or would find of interest

@iang  @EwenS @Grey Beema

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Perhaps Sky Blue spinner?  Looks like a standard Spitfire under nose cowling to me.  Not a Vokes filter, although I believe that some Seafires were so equipped.

[wmcgill]

14 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Perhaps Sky Blue spinner?  Looks like a standard Spitfire under nose cowling to me.  Not a Vokes filter, although I believe that some Seafires were so equipped.

I think you're referring to the Seafires in the background. It's this aircraft, hidden on the left side of the photos with a Vokes filter, that is being discussed.

[EwenS]

Not sure if this will help.

 

From the IWM here is a photo dated July 1943 showing two Seafire on Formidable. The first is MB182/F, a IIc, while the second is Ib MB345/K. The latter served with 801 squadron in Jan-Feb 1943 before joining 885.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205151076

 

unfortunately most of the photos of Seafires on Furious date to 1944.

[iang]

I  have a few Furious Seafire photos. This is the best one, which I have just snapped on my phone. 

 

 

According to the original annotation on the reverse, this is a Torch example, but I've not checked. All the other are similarly marked with single letters forward of the roundel.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, EwenS said:

From the IWM here is a photo dated July 1943 showing two Seafire on Formidable. The first is MB182/F, a IIc, while the second is Ib MB345/K. The latter served with 801 squadron in Jan-Feb 1943 before joining 885.

for ease of reference, 

BIG BRITISH SHIPS IN THE IONIAN SEA AS INVASION OF SICILY BEGAN. 10 TO 16 JULY 1943, ON BOARD HMS FORMIDABLE. BIG SHIPS OF FORCE "H" WERE IN THE IONIAN SEA AT THE START OF THE SICILY INVASION.. © IWM (A 18314) IWM Non Commercial License

https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/473/717/mid_000000.jpg

[Etiennedup]

I also enlarged and tweaked the subject in question.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

20 hours ago, mstares said:

Some IWM newsreel footage of Martlet landing Ops likely shows the same aircraft in the same spot, as seen from the port side but rather silhouetted

Is the footage online? And, if so is there a link?

[mstares]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Is the footage online? And, if so is there a link?

Folks,

 

Thanks for all the replies. Most helpful.

 

The MB366 'K" shot is nice as that is one of the profiles kicking around. There are a few single code letter 801 squadron Seafire Ib shots out there but this is the only one I have seen with code markings and  that can be tied in proximity to Torch. 

 

As for my own Newsreel searches. Check out:

 

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/37476

 

The silhouetted Seafire discussed above can be seen around the 1:45 mark.

 

Armoured Carriers has some Seafire and Martlet videos with some Torch materiel it you sift through it. Some of it is from the IWM newsreel listed above.... Others are unknown to me but are quite curious. One scene shows the American markings being painted on the underside of the wing, whilst another shows the tail end of a Seafire with the American marking,... No code is visible, no serial is visible and it does not have the Sky ID band.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnVJJ9BVLGU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rib2yDH02PI

 

Pathe has a rather poor quality, as far as I can tell, unlike a lot of their material they have not posted a cleaned up version on youtube

 

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/VLVA9GAGBKFI0ZNN26QFR5HD2KSFG-THE-ROAD-TO-TUNIS-ANGLO-US-LANDINGS-IN-NORTH-AFRICA/query/Road+to+tunis

 

Mark

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, mstares said:

has some Seafire and Martlet videos with some Torch materiel it you sift through it.

If you right click a youtube video you can get an option to 'copy URL',  or copy URL at present time'  .  This option creates a link direct to the that moment in the video, and in a case like this, would allow more precise direction,  rather than a need to watch the entire video,  also YouTube downloaders exist, and the advantage of this is you can use VLC media player  (it's free) to view them,  meaning you watch frame by frame (use the e key)  and then take screen shots, easier than using a PrintScreen option, which can be the only way if you can't download them. 

 

HTH

 

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, mstares said:

has some Seafire and Martlet videos with some Torch materiel it you sift through it.

 

 

a couple of printscreens from 

 

Seafire IIC ,  from the cannon bulges.

 

I presume the elevators are just deflected.   

 

O*6? 

 

Are they yellwo rings around the upper wing stars, or just faded roundels.   The full fin height fin flash may help as an identifier? 

 

 

[mstares]

So, looked at the forum guidance for posting images, hopefully I stay under the limits.

 

A few images to contribute to the discussion. First is a shot purported to be an 801 Ib.... Likely as part a single light coloured code letter can be see to the right of the roundel (Note the star points overlapping the yellow surround)

 

As to the yellow surround vs  faded roundel on the wings see these 885 IIc (No serial but apparent c wing cannon stubs) O6-G screen grabs from the armoured carrier video (Slipper tank, yellow wing id bands, no sky ID bands)... Rough overpainting of the roundel is also a possibility

 

Lastly another armoured carrier video screen grab (I can't find the corresponding IWM footage for these, and I would love to) showing a Torch seafire tail on the outrigger... no serial, no sky band, and no codes behind the roundel.... Also the star point overlap what should be the yellow surround (type of film may be impacting how the yellow is captured/depicted)

 

 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

18 minutes ago, mstares said:

So, looked at the forum guidance for posting images, hopefully I stay under the limits.

look fine.  Just big images take a long time to load.

18 minutes ago, mstares said:

As to the yellow surround vs  faded roundel on the wings see these 885 IIc (No serial but apparent c wing cannon stubs) O6-G screen grabs from the armoured carrier video (Slipper tank, yellow wing id bands, no sky ID bands)... Rough overpainting of the roundel is also a possibility

 

 

What really odd on these is the cannon access hatch are missing...    that looks like deck crew moving the plane. Anyway, I never seen anything like this.

Possibly @iang or @EwenS may have a serial tie up for O6-G? 

 

HTH

 

[iang]

O6-G  -  MB119 had a barrier crash on 26/10/42, but had a history after Torch. The 885 Squadron Diary has two photos of this crash where the serial is readable. However, at this stage it carried British roundels (but the cannon access covers are  missing) . From the crash photos it doesn't look to me that it would be serviceable by the beginning of Torch on 8 November, but the lack of cannon access covers suggest that it may well have been the same aircraft as pictured in the post above.

 

 

[GrzeM]

Great find and an interesting topic!

BTW, I wonder if the spinner colours are section markings, like the nose bands in No. 800 Squadron Sea Hurricanes?

 

Best!

G.

[Phoenix44]

On 02/11/2022 at 21:23, Troy Smith said:

look fine.  Just big images take a long time to load.

 

 

What really odd on these is the cannon access hatch are missing...    that looks like deck crew moving the plane. Anyway, I never seen anything like this.

Possibly @iang or @EwenS may have a serial tie up for O6-G? 

 

HTH

 

The engine seems to be running though. Wouldn't the deck crew push it around? And the splash of white on the pilot could be a collar which probably means an officer. 

[EwenS]

If the aircraft had been damaged in a deck landing accident and was repairable on the carrier, then it would need its engine tested before re-entering service. That would have to be carried out on the flight deck. British closed hangars had no provision for it to be carried out there (no way of extracting exhaust fumes. And just think of the noise of a Merlin running at full chat in a metal box!). So maybe just a case of repairs not being complete but engine needing tested.

[Grey Beema]

On 11/2/2022 at 11:44 PM, iang said:

O6-G  -  MB119 had a barrier crash on 26/10/42, but had a history after Torch. The 885 Squadron Diary has two photos of this crash where the serial is readable. However, at this stage it carried British roundels (but the cannon access covers are  missing) . From the crash photos it doesn't look to me that it would be serviceable by the beginning of Torch on 8 November, but the lack of cannon access covers suggest that it may well have been the same aircraft as pictured in the post above.

 

 

 

Just had a look at Sturtivant  He lists that MB119 Ø6*G hit the barrier as you say 26/10/42 (S/L JD Buchanan) but he also lists MB156 as Ø*6G from 10.42.  S/L JD Buchanan made a claim in MB156 on 08/11/42.  MB156 was written off in an accident 07/04/43.  Do you have the combat report for Buchanan and was the aircraft ID confirmed for the claim on 08/11/42?

 

Also, per chance, do you have a photo of S/L Buchanan.  I think this is him but with an incorrect caption:-

 

[iang]

I'll check the Squadron Diary, which I have a copy of, but I'm away from home at the moment. It has quite a few photographs of personnel in it.

[ClaudioN]

Another photo of MB345:K, together with ø6B (serial not shown) and MB360:C on the flight deck of Formidable at a slightly earlier date (20-30 May 1943):

THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (A 17083) IWM Non Commercial License

Here 'K' has a single-letter code, that might be its appearance during its earlier service with 801 Sqn. 'C' also saw earlier service with 801 Sqn.

 

Plain for all to see, but I had never realized before that in 1943 Formidable operated a mixed complement of Mk.IB/Mk.IIC Seafires. I also believe I can see a 45-gallon slipper tank underneath ø6K:MB345 in the other photo with ø6F:MB182.

 

[ClaudioN]

For a 807 Squadron Seafire Mk. IIC, this photo at least shows an individual letter 'C' in red. The only other one I know of is 'K', also in red, with Torch star fuselage markings.

[mstares]

Folks, thanks to all those who responded.

 

Whilst I think I found what I needed, I thought I would also pass along the following image I just found on twitter.  A Torch IIc, again with the star overlapping the yellow band of the roundel, but no traces of serial or codes.

 

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, mstares said:

Torch IIc, again with the star overlapping the yellow band of the roundel, but no traces of serial or codes.

Note also the flap held open with wooden blocks, to help with take off. The flaps only have up or down positions, hence the blocks, which set an angle, after take off the flaps are then fully extended,  the blocks fall away and then flaps raised.  Neat photo of this detail, and a reason for dropped flaps on a model 

 

[ClaudioN]

Troy just beat me to the wooden block comment...

Another point of interest is about the "Torch roundel", which was created by a white star is overlapping a 'C1 type' roundel. The points of the star extend to the edge of the yellow ring and, looking carefully, parts of the white ring can be seen between some of the star points (roughly, 8 o' clock and 11 o' clock positions).

 

Also of note is the wire aerial for the radio, that I think means HF radio was used.

Edited December 11, 2022 by ClaudioN