Levelling decals with surrounding surface/ removing decal 'bumps'

[Ngantek]

I've had a look around but not seen this topic covered very much. 

Essentially the continual issue with decals for me is the thickness; the carrier film and decal itself obviously creates a raised surface, and 'step' at the decal edge, that we will all be familiar with.

(Arbitrary selected photo)

 

The more matte the final varnish layer, the easier it is to hide this, but it's something that always bothers me. Particularly with stencils, whose carrier film seems even more obvious and difficult to eradicate due to their small size.

 

In the past I've generally dealt with this by over-egging a subsequent gloss varnish layer for the well-known 'glazed doughnut' effect (I present, with some shame, exhibits B and C):

 

Before proceeding to try and sand the whole down, the aim removing the carrier film but not the decal, and levelling it, as far as possible, with the surrounding thick varnish layer. Apparently, I took lots of photos when doing this model:

 

 

This has...sort of worked for me in the past. The issues are:

(a) The sanding, while levelling the whole finish nicely, is very easy to overdo and damage the decals and any raised detail. Usually it will need some patchwork at least.

(b) The sanding has a tendency to add general 'wear' and variation to the model, which can be a good for beaten up old things, but is best avoided if one wants a sharp gloss finish, say.

(c) In order for this to work, a reasonably thick layer of varnish is required. Clearly the decal itself (minus the carrier film), has some thickness, and the surrounding varnish must be at least that thick in order to stand a chance of levelling off the bump. This is fairly thick, and consequently will gum up some surface detail and generally make the whole model a little 'blobbier', particularly around sharp detail and trailing edges.

 

What I'm finding, as I get (very) slightly better at keeping a smooth paint layer and thinner coats of varnish, that you reach a point where the decals can't be 'levelled' without sanding through the colour layer. Retaining detail and sharpness are clearly king in modelling, so I'd venture that it's better to avoid a varnish layer thick enough to allow decal levelling. So with that in mind, what are the available options? I can think of a few perhaps?

 

1) Do not sand down or level the decals! It is just the cost of doing business. Matte finishes will hide the issue, generally the bump is not going to be too bad? I feel like (from reading lots of build logs and reviews) that this is the approach most people take?

2) Use a thicker layer of varnish just in the immediate area around the decals, to give enough 'height' to blend. I don't know about this one, but might give it a try on less visible surfaces in the future. The issue may be, I suspect, when it comes to little stencils, which being small, will show up the more concentrated area of excess varnishing more obviously. 

3) Paint your markings as much as possible. This seems eminently sensible, but not really a goer for me without a silhouette printer. Even cutting and centring the many circles needed for 3- or 4- colour roundels sounds horrific without one (though perhaps I should try it before mouthing off!). Anyway regardless, it still leaves the issue of stencils and other small markings, which can't be masked and painted on such a small scale.

 

I know Eduard have decals that are specifically designed to have removable carrier film now, but there is still the issue of non-zero decal thickness.

 

Anyway I'd be very interested to hear peoples' approaches to this issue, and for any suggestions on how to alleviate it!

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

 

[dromia]

Where I can I use HGW wet transfers.

[Mark Harmsworth]

Option 1: do nothing (always my favourite).  I rarely use matt finishes - most of mine are satin.

 

From the distance most models are viewed the difference between the level of any decal and the surrounding is insignificant.

 

And no one else looks at them apart from me.

[Ngantek]

1 hour ago, dromia said:

Where I can I use HGW wet transfers.

I hadn't heard of these, but they look good, I will file into the 'pit of random things that I need to try' (and probably never recall again!) Thanks.

 

Just to pick up on this a bit, am I right in thinking that most mainstream decals these days have the carrier film over the ink, rather than the ink printed onto the carrier?

 

50 minutes ago, Mark Harmsworth said:

Option 1: do nothing (always my favourite).  I rarely use matt finishes - most of mine are satin.

 

From the distance most models are viewed the difference between the level of any decal and the surrounding is insignificant.

 

And no one else looks at them apart from me.

Yes I'm thinking option 1 is the best! it's such a fraught technique to sand once the decals are down, I'm beginning to think it's more likely to introduce larger problems into the build!

 

Just filing this here (turns out google is better at searching britmodeller than britmodeller) since I will almost certainly never find it again!

 

Phil Flory seems to use enamel thinners to dissolve away the carrier film. Obviously requires experiment with your specific decals, using your specific thinner over your specific paint (which of course can't be enamel!). My most recent builds are all 'decals sealed in varnish' but next one, I'll make an effort to apply some similar paint and spare decal to a spare part and have a hack at this in parallel. 

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Ngantek said:

Use a thicker layer of varnish just in the immediate area around the decals, to give enough 'height' to blend. I don't know about this one, but might give it a try on less visible surfaces in the future. The issue may be, I suspect, when it comes to little stencils, which being small, will show up the more concentrated area of excess varnishing more obviously. 

 see

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235038987-bedding-decals-in-klear-future-or-equivalent/

 

2 hours ago, Ngantek said:

I know Eduard have decals that are specifically designed to have removable carrier film now,

they are not, just happens that you can do this.

2 hours ago, Ngantek said:

but there is still the issue of non-zero decal thickness.

there is the issue of paint non zero thickness in real life.   Example

Touching up        July 1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

I think you maybe overthinking this, which is easy enough to do, buy  your models look fine, and since even with paint masks there would be a paint layer issue.

 

the 'bed in kleer' will help,  as does using warm to hot water for the decal water,  which softens them.   As I brush paint, the layers are reasonably thick,  which likely helps in the concealment.

Plus if you have kleered the model, then apply using kleer, it beds into the the varnish.

 

HTH

 

PS

many years ago in an article by the late Peter Cooke on 1/24th scratchbuilding he mention how the surface of WW2 aircraft tended to far more uneven than were are used to dealing with model kits

these are from the walkround below, of an unrestored WW2 airframe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It had been in storage from 1943,  but it's all original paint.    the are more pics in the walkround, and it maybe the best idea of a how a worn WW2 airframe looked.     

 

 

 

 

more wartime colour

Spitfire Mk. Vb. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Spitfire Mk.V cockpit. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

SAAF pilots, 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Test Pilot               c1944. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Seafire by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

Seafires , 1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

note the roundel

Hurricane close up by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

 

Spitfire wing getting it's roundel c1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

Edited October 31, 2022 by Troy Smith
add pics

[Mike]

I usually do one of three things:

 

1. Use Eduard decals produced from 2021 onwards, as the carrier film can be peeled off making the decals almost flush with the surface.  See my recent Wildcat if you're interested.
2. Use other wet transfers, such as HGW, and I believe there are others.
3. Once the decals are dry, seal them with a few spot coats of clear gloss varnish, and carefully (can't stress that enough), sand back the high spots and repeat until they're level with the surrounds.  It's time-consuming, but worth the effort.  I used it on my AMK Mig-31 Foxhound a few years back, and my recent A35 Vultee Vengeance.

 

All good fun I've yet to try building a model with all painted markings, but I'll get round to it one day

[Ngantek]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 ...

 

HTH

 

 

Fantastic info and photos as always Troy. Those hurricane ones in particular are worth referring back to again and again.

 

But I have noticed certainly on restored or display aircraft that you often see paint lines and suchlike. I guess it doesn't fit with the idea of what it should look like rather than the reality.

It's one of the ironic conventions of modelling I think, rather like crystal clear polished canopies on even the most distraught old wrecks. 

 

But I guess my current obsession with surface finish arises from feeling forced into certain textures and looks by the limitations of how much I can control that roughness. Or more simply, my paint (and decals) are rough so I can only produce rough worn finishes. The dogmatic side of me wants to be able to start from as controlled an environment as possible ('smooth, glossy, sharp') and the be free to apply whatever texture and weathering I want. Anyway this is I suspect just bad theory and being disabused of it is probably just part of learning the hobby.

 

Anyway also thanks for a reminder of @stevehnz's KOE soln technique. I've used it successfully onto matte actually, but am still very much a neophyte. My issue is, with these kinds of builds I don't find klear sands all that well, so we're in the chicken egg situation of I sand because of my technique and because I sand I can't use a different technique.

 

But yes as you say, overall I think I'm overthinking!

 

5 hours ago, Mike said:

I usually do one of three things:

 

1. Use Eduard decals produced from 2021 onwards, as the carrier film can be peeled off making the decals almost flush with the surface.  See my recent Wildcat if you're interested.
2. Use other wet transfers, such as HGW, and I believe there are others.
3. Once the decals are dry, seal them with a few spot coats of clear gloss varnish, and carefully (can't stress that enough), sand back the high spots and repeat until they're level with the surrounds.  It's time-consuming, but worth the effort.  I used it on my AMK Mig-31 Foxhound a few years back, and my recent A35 Vultee Vengeance.

 

All good fun I've yet to try building a model with all painted markings, but I'll get round to it one day

Thanks Mike, sounds like option 3 is a rather more sensible version of 'localised glossing'. Glad to know it can work. With the tempest above I certainly reached the point where I'm a long way from levelling but am going through the top ink layer; so as you say perhaps an iterative approach, adding more gloss as needed to the specific area is a good idea?

 

Cheers,

Andy

[Troy Smith]

27 minutes ago, Ngantek said:

It's one of the ironic conventions of modelling I think, rather like crystal clear polished canopies on even the most distraught old wrecks. 

Too see was to live.  Canopies were very carefully looked after.   A small scratch could catch the light, as in is that a scratch or an enemy plane ctahcing the light...... 

Thereis a great photo on this in one of the Spitfire at War books.

Note the state of the canopy on that Finnish Hurricane....

 

Aeroplanes are not tanks, they are very expensive and complex bits of machinery that don't work properly if dirty and ill cared for, that had massive supply structures in place to ensure they did work.

 

They regularly got cleaned and serviced even under trying conditions.    An aircraft post sortie maybe grubby, but oil and exhaust stains got cleaned off. 

They often didn't last long either. 

34 minutes ago, Ngantek said:

But I guess my current obsession with surface finish arises from feeling forced into certain textures and looks by the limitations of how much I can control that roughness. Or more simply, my paint (and decals) are rough so I can only produce rough worn finishes. The dogmatic side of me wants to be able to start from as controlled an environment as possible ('smooth, glossy, sharp') and the be free to apply whatever texture and weathering I want. Anyway this is I suspect just bad theory and being disabused of it is probably just part of learning the hobby.

well at least you have the support group here to discuss it with    

 

Again, study photos.   That's what I post reference images,  as the old cliché 'a picture is worth a 1000 words' is rarely truer, though it's handy to know what too look for.  Or where to find the images. 

 

Glad they were of interest

cheers

T 

[Mike]

11 hours ago, Ngantek said:

I'm a long way from levelling but am going through the top ink layer; so as you say perhaps an iterative approach, adding more gloss as needed to the specific area is a good idea?

That’s exactly what I do. A layer of gloss, a little sanding, rinse and repeat. Time consuming, but worth it.