Bertie McBoatface Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Jasper dog said: Like this one.... https://images.app.goo.gl/iZwrWBfBn32pXSrAA Darryl Exactly. It's as agile as a fork lift truck. Complicated though and expensive, typical! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 8 hours ago, Jasper dog said: Like this one.... https://images.app.goo.gl/iZwrWBfBn32pXSrAA Darryl If you think of the wheels superimposed on a circle then it seems to me that the wheels on the second and third axles would be angled less than those on the first and fourth otherwise it would tend to "crab" rather than turn smoothly, but I will say no more and let Bob get on with his build. Pete 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, PeterB said: If you think of the wheels superimposed on a circle then it seems to me that the wheels on the second and third axles would be angled less than those on the first and fourth otherwise it would tend to "crab" rather than turn smoothly, but I will say no more and let Bob get on with his build. Who knew what a can of worms I was opening when I modified the kit to have poseable steering, perhaps that's why the Dragon designers made this series of armoured cars with their wheels in a straight line because it became a bit of a bun fight how to represent the steering geometry correctly? I'll get to the bottom of it by the time it's finished. One thing I'm pretty sure about though, Darryl @Jasper dog his link to that picture of a Puma armoured car with its wheels turned is a model. Almost caught me out, got excited about an amoured car with ambush style camouflage. Edited November 7, 2022 by Retired Bob missing word 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartH Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 It's quite subtle but it possibly looks like the centre pairs of wheels may turn less than the front and back pair...it does seem to make sense so steering isn't as severe? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper dog Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Retired Bob said: One thing I'm pretty sure about though, Darryl @Jasper dog his link to that picture of a Puma armoured car with its wheels turned is a model. Almost caught me out, got excited about an amoured car with ambush style camouflage. So it bally well is, I'd never even noticed until you mentioned it, what an absolute clown! Once you've seen it it's totally obvious. Funny how most period photos show the wheels straight. Teach me to get carried away... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Jasper dog said: So it bally well is, I'd never even noticed until you mentioned it, what an absolute clown! Once you've seen it it's totally obvious. Easily done old chap, the thing that made me suspicious in the first place was, compared to real period photos, the tyres were all kit ones, and the vision ports were all closed. 3 hours ago, Jasper dog said: Funny how most period photos show the wheels straight. I think that must be the military way. "Come on chaps, they are going to take a photo of our tanky thing, get those wheels straightened up, chop, chop" (But in German) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper dog Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 26 minutes ago, Retired Bob said: I think that must be the military way. "Come on chaps, they are going to take a photo of our tanky thing, get those wheels straightened up, chop, chop" (But in German) Puts me in mind of Lieutenant Gruber and his "little tank" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, Jasper dog said: Puts me in mind of Lieutenant Gruber and his "little tank" Exactly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 18 hours ago, PeterB said: If you think of the wheels superimposed on a circle then it seems to me that the wheels on the second and third axles would be angled less than those on the first and fourth otherwise it would tend to "crab" rather than turn smoothly, but I will say no more and let Bob get on with his build. And Peter wins the coconut, I found this image in a 1974 book on armoured cars: Peter perfectly described that the centre set of wheels turn slightly less than the outer ones. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 19 hours ago, StuartH said: It's quite subtle but it possibly looks like the centre pairs of wheels may turn less than the front and back pair...it does seem to make sense so steering isn't as severe? Sorry that I forgot that you had also correctly mentioned that the centre sets of wheels also turn slightly less, still impossible to find a photo of an in service 234 armoured car with its wheels not in a straight line. As for differing tyre treads, ET Models make 7 types of different tyre patterns for the 234 series of armoured cars, 3D printed and 4 wheels in a pack, I have just ordered a set to see how good they are, but at almost £20 per set including p & p it would be expensive to get some of each of them! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEscaleSHOW Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 3 hours ago, Retired Bob said: And Peter wins the coconut, I found this image in a 1974 book on armoured cars: Peter perfectly described that the centre set of wheels turn slightly less than the outer ones. Hello Bob As described before, the steering angle of axes 2 and 3 is smaller than that of axes 1 and 4. Only in this way is cornering possible at all. You can easily find out the desired steering angle on your model by reducing the turning circle (diameter) of 14.9 m on a scale of 1:35, painting it on paper and aligning the wheels accordingly. Here is some more info: This fact was first recognized by the Munich carriage builder Georg Lankensperger and published in 1816, whereby he also immediately provided a possibility for practical realization with the so-called steering trapeze. In order to obtain a protective right in Great Britain as well, he commissioned Rudolph Ackermann, an art dealer living in London, with the patenting. For this reason, the exact steering angles are also referred to as Ackermann angles or the steering as Ackermann steering or - in English-speaking countries - as A-steering. The theoretical dependence of the steering angles cannot be realized by simple means, but only approximated. One of the possibilities is the aforementioned steering trapezoid. The track rod levers of the wheels to be steered are not exactly parallel to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle, but are directed slightly inward (toward the center of the vehicle) or outward (depending on where the track rod is located). As a result, the axle, tie rod lever and tie rod no longer form a rectangle when the vehicle is in the straight-ahead position, but rather a trapezoid. Hopefully it helps 🙂 MD More pics: https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/armored_vehicles/sdkfz_231_232_233/destroyed-sdkfz-231-poland-1939/ BTW: The steering of the Bundeswehr "Luchs" is also based on this. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 It's about time I updated my thread, I haven't been well recently, which knocks the modelling mojo back, but I have been researching the inner details of these 234 series of armoured cars and painted the interior of my vehicle, a couple more bits and pieces like the 7.5cm ammo for the ready use container some personal crew gear and it will be ready to join the upper and lower halves of the body together. These vehicles started coming into service during the summer of 1944, so I've done some scuffing and wear but not gone too heavy handed. As usual with interior detail, some of it will not be seen but it's better to paint it all than realise once it's finished and some things not painted that they can be seen. 18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geo1966 Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Looking good Bob. George 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 The different tyre types reminded me of one of my favourite public information films from the 1970s. I must be a bad person because I find this one hilarious. Check your tyres, Bob! 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper dog Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Looking good Bob, nice restrained weathering. Good to have you back, hope you're back to good health! Atb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted November 22, 2022 Author Share Posted November 22, 2022 11 minutes ago, Ned said: The different tyre types reminded me of one of my favourite public information films from the 1970s. I remember that ad, such different times. I have 3 different tyre types now to mix and match, the 3D printed ones arrived, they are in a nice salmon pink colour. They have nice sidewall detail, I had to check photos because the sidewall detail on real ones is very subtle and are almost hidden by a thin coat dirt and mud. Once in service they seem to have used any type of tyre that fitted, and with no seat belts and a transmission box as a trip hazard in the fighting compartment, where were the health and safety advisors? 7 minutes ago, Jasper dog said: Looking good Bob, nice restrained weathering. Honestly, it looks better than in the photo, I'll take some better piccys. 11 minutes ago, Jasper dog said: Good to have you back, hope you're back to good health! Glad to be back, I'm hoping I'm over the worst. I hope Scoobie is fine. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanC Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Very realistic interior there - looks just right.👏 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edjbartos Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 I do like the way that you have painted the interior, really excellent paintwork, just fabulous, well done...👍 Ed 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper dog Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 9 hours ago, Retired Bob said: Honestly, it looks better than in the photo, I'll take some better piccys. If it looks even better then great cos I reckon it looks pretty good already! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 I thought I'd better post an update on this build, I cannot believe that almost 4 weeks have gone by, I have been diverted on my other GB build, a Meteor F.8. Enough of the excuses, I did some more work on the interior before attaching the upper hull and mud guards/side sponsons. I have mixed up the wheels with 3 different treaded tyres on each side with the 3D printed ones from ET Models on the front. Now the freezing weather is over for a while I'm hoping now I can get some more paint on this armoured car, especially those front wheels. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Masters Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 Very nice work and, as others have noted, subtle and realistic wear and tear. I like the idea of mixed tread tires. Probably a very normal situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted December 21, 2022 Author Share Posted December 21, 2022 6 hours ago, John Masters said: Very nice work and, as others have noted, subtle and realistic wear and tear. I like the idea of mixed tread tires. Probably a very normal situation. Photos of captured vehicles show a lot of variation in the tyres fitted, the ET Models 3D printed ones offer 7 tyre patterns, not cheap but they do have nice sidewall detail including the 'Semperit' logo. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin W Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 Coming together nicely Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Bob Posted December 30, 2022 Author Share Posted December 30, 2022 A quick update on my progress so far, apart from external stowage, radio aerial and machine guns I have added all the kit parts together so it was ready for some paint. After all the bad weather I finally managed to get into my garage and start the compressor. I applied an overall coat of Tamiya XF-88 late war yellow #2 after filling the open top with some sponge, for once everything worked as it should and here is the result, ready for some camouflage colours of red brown and green. I had decided to glue up the steering and add the steering linkages, the rear 4 wheels will be inline and the front four will be turned, here is a gratuitous bottom view. I have put a base coat of AK German rubber grey on the tyres and will apply various washes and then mud and dust until I'm happy with them. The 3D printed ones are the only tyres with sidewall lettering. The jerry cans will be weathered and chipped then I have some P/E holders by Aber to put them in ready to be added to the mudguards. Here is a view of the top. Thanks for looking, any advice or comments are always welcome. Especially on the colours for the 7.5cm gun breech block and empty casing catch bag. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor L Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 Nice work. Everyone loves a gratuitous bottom view! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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