Future of AFV Warfare. Electric and Hybrid vehicles

[StuartH]

Hi,

Over on the Kelly's Heroes thread, discussion meandered onto the topic of electric and hybrid AFV vehicles.

 

It became apparent that this is a topic that deserves its own thread and raises many interesting questions for the future.

 

A quick google search states that the oil will run out in about 50 years. What will the future of AFV warfare be?

How will electric and hybrid AFV vehicles develop in the coming years? Will countries be waging war over the last remaining oil reserves using hybrid vehicles? What are the advantages of electric powered vehicles?

 

Elon Musk believes that AI weapons pose a greater threat than nuclear weapons. Will future warfare be drones and AI? Has the failed invasion by Russia using tanks and relying on the logistics of hydrocarbon fuels taught us anything?

 

 

All thoughts and musings welcome!

 

This is a reply from @Kingsman which folk may find interesting:

 

They are here now, but not in service.  Many companies are going down that road.  Latest I've heard about is Supacat with an "electric" (presumably hybrid) SF patrol vehicle.  Electric-drive, generally hybrid, military demonstrators have been around for almost 20 years.  The UK and Sweden had a jointly-funded programme in the late noughties.  Germany, South Africa and the USA were at it then too.  Military vehicles' electric power consumption needs continue to grow with more and more electronic systems.  The UK spent ££ millions on evaluating whether FRES - now Ajax family and Boxer MIV - should or could use electric drive, concluding that it was not then yet practical.

 

All-electric has a fundamental logistic challenge with charging: you can't carry electricity about in jerrycans.........  Even if you swap the heavy batteries the discharged ones still need to be recharged.  Portable charging using wind or solar are unreliable, vulnerable and can have large visual and radar signatures.  Diesel generation kinda defeats the object.  Flexible roll-up solar chargers were used in Afghanistan for manpack radios but would need to be the size of a football field for a tank.  Electric ranges for heavy vehicles cross-country will be very short.  Maybe no more than the 30 miles or so of heavy tanks of the WW2 era.

 

Batteries are heavy and bulky.  They need to be at the bottom of the vehicle for CG considerations.  Here they are vulnerable to mine and IED strike unless the hull bottom is massively reinforced.  Lithium batteries can suffer from thermal runaway and will in any case heat up during charging and high-energy discharging.  Ventilation in the hull bottom will be problematic.  Battery fragments blasted into the fighting compartment will be less than pleasant.  Shades of DU again.

 

Adding dual drive systems will increase the size, and therefore weight, of the vehicle.  Which in turn will increase the energy consumption, needing more powerful mechanical and electric drivetrains, greater electric generation and storage capacity.  An ever-increasing spiral.  The answer is probably to have permanent electric drive - no mechanical drivetrain - with diesel generation.  This is how LTI have engineered the new London Black Cab and Nissan have engineered the new Qashqai.  That was how the UK and Sweden were thinking 15 years or more ago.

 

It was proved that electric motors needed to be water-cooled for heavy-duty AFV use, so radiators and water systems are still needed.  And as we know, the wet stuff and electrickery don't play nice with each other.  Heat transfer from the motors essentially meant water jackets.  And if you have one motor per track, which is logical and simple for steering, using regenerative braking to scavenge a bit of power too, then you still need some sort of mechanical cross-drive so that one engine can still move the vehicle in an emergency.  But then you can't steer......  Steel tracks were a problem because of their weight - 2-4 tonnes per side on an MBT - and the power loss in just turning them.  Electric drive worked better with rubber tracks.  Which in turn bought its own supportability problems for repair and replacement and an enlarged logistic tail carrying spare tracks, trucks needed cranes to handle them etc.  Sectioned rubber tracks with metal joins were trialled but the metal-rubber bonding proved intractable.

 

Wheeled vehicles have other problems.  Battery weight, bulk and location issues are the same, and you lose perhaps a tonne or more of payload capacity.  Solar panels incorporated into canvas tilts and box body roofs have been considered.  An electric engine driving a conventional mechanical driveline is inefficient and you can't use regenerative braking and power scavenging.  So that leads you to synchronous hub motors: motors in the wheels.  Again these have been experimented-with for military use and have been in commercial use for 20 years.  But you get very heavy wheels with very expensive spares, assuming you're not on runflats.  On AFVs the wheels need armoured covers.  But these also proved to need water cooling and of course they need electric power cables.  The power and water connections, which must flex with the suspension, proved extremely vulnerable to even terrain damage never mind battle damage.  Of course they could be run through hollow suspension wishbones.  Which means redesigning many suspension systems, especially on trucks and other vehicles traditionally using live axles.  Hub drive lends itself to fully independent wishbone designs.  That in turn leads to the possibility of easier all-wheel steering, which some e-drive military demonstrators have, adjustable ride height and even self-jackup wheels for wheel changes.  Like GD's AHED, tested in the UK in about 2007.  Although a US vehicle from GDLS the key drive tech was German, from Magnet Motor - now part of Renk.

 

So, does anyone think we will see hybrid military vehicles in front-line service anywhere soon?  It ain't as simple as you think and it's a world away from a Nissan Leaf or even a Tesla Truck (still only half the weight of an MBT and runs on roads) or the Extreme E electric off-road racing series.  And then someone will develop deployable EMP weapons ............

 

And apologies for hijacking the thread.  My bad.  But someone else started it........  This is perhaps a fertile discussion subject for Real Armour or Armour Chat.

Edited 1 hour ago by Kingsman

[Black Knight]

As I said over there;

In WW1 the US Army used hybrid trucks in France

Prior to WW1 electric and hybrid vehicles were very common and more reliable than petrol i/c engines

One thing that I read about the US Army using electric/hybrid trucks in France was that they could move supplies to forward positions relatively quietly, and at night,  and not attract the attention of the German artillery

My paternal grandfather drove munitions supply wagons for his artillery regiment in WW1 France. 20 or so horse drawn wagons on a gravel road make a lot of noise and it attracted German artillery often and they got shelled. Electric trucks could carry more and were quieter and could go faster than a four-in-hand horse team

 

btw, back in the early 1970s teachers told us that the oil would run out by; 1980, 1985, 1990, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2010, 2020, 2030. It will run out when there is no more

[dcrfan]

A jerry can of sparks.  Love it😜 Having recently had to have a discussion dispelling the enthusiasm for going electric for military vehicles I can't see it for another decade.   

[Kingsman]

I wasn't intending to say that electric propulsion for vehicles is new.  Perhaps I meant a resurgence in the past few years as electric vehicles look set to become the norm.  Electric ships are a different subject we shouldn't dive (dive, dive......) into here.  Electric drive was around before WW1, essentially as an early answer the the then-difficult problems of mechanical power transmission. 

 

The French St Chamond tank of WW1 was petrol-electric for exactly that reason and has the honour of being the first hybrid AFV.  As we know, Ferdinand Porsche was a key proponent of the idea.  Contrary to some beliefs, his electric drive systems in his various AFV projects actually worked quite well.  The problem with his proposals for what became Tiger and Tiger B was his air-cooled V10 petrol engines, which never worked reliably enough.  They managed in Ferdinand/Elefant because that vehicle was not required to manoeuvre in the manner of a tank, essentially just moving between static positions if employed correctly.  Porsche absolutely refused to countenance using proven Maybach power and the necessary redesign for water cooling systems.  Had he done so then Tiger(P) might well have become the Tiger we know.

 

Readers may infer from the long post above that I have some history with this.  I placed the contracts for much of the e-drive work on FRES in 2004-8: the ££ millions I mentioned.

 

I was attempting to set out some of the very real practical limitations of electric drive for military vehicles in the environment and under the conditions they are required to operate and be sustained.  I can't see all-electric ever being militarily practical without the invention of small safe self-sustaining power sources

 

Electric drive is probably pushing us more towards UGVs because that means removing the space and weight dedicated to human crew.  But they still need to be controlled by radio from a cabin somewhere consuming more electric power.  And to break off to head home to recharge at inopportune moments.  Those signals can be jammed or hacked or the whole system just frazzled beyond repair with EMP.  And Mr Musk is quite right to be worried about the potential threat from AI UGVs with weapons.

[StuartH]

Certainly noise reduction would be one advantage and also the benefits of greater acceleration and immediate power.

I expect the oil will run out when it becomes uneconomically viable to drill for the really hard to access stuff. 

 

I agree that unmanned vehicles are likely to take on a greater role in the future, lighter and far more energy efficient.

This would give the potential for more radical vehicle designs....AI controlled Kugelpanzers?

 

 

 

Anyone for nuclear powered tanks? There was the Chrysler TV-8 from the cold war era though I expect too many disadvantages to be tried again!

 

 

What future is there for the tank given their susceptibility to drone attacks as demonstrated in Ukraine?

[Kingsman]

Readers might find this interesting: https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2021/10/6/electric-vehicles-for-the-military-still-a-pipedream

 

The headline summary of this report in the online magazine says:

 

"In a sprawling study, the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine, said battlefields of the future will require the Army to invest in a mix of energy sources, including jet propellant 8, diesel and renewable diesel, but all-electric vehicles are not yet practical — at least through 2035."

 

"Despite the Army showing interest in electric vehicles, the study, “Powering the U.S. Army of the Future,” noted that all-electric ground combat platforms and tactical supply vehicles are not practical now or in the foreseeable future."

 

More interestingly perhaps are hints about bio-fuels as hydrocarbon replacements, being considerably more power-dense than current battery technology.

[Blimpyboy]

 

And, to amplify @Kingsman’s entries somewhat: https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2021/10/6/electric-vehicles-for-the-military-still-a-pipedream

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Blimpyboy

[Kingsman]

This is the British Army's current position statement: https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2021/07/army-hybrid-vehicles-power-forward/

 

While the MAN SV truck gets a mention here, it is worth noting that South Africa funded an 8x8 e-drive MAN truck with Magnet Motor hub motors nearly 20 years or so ago and subjected it to a very successful 30,000km trial.  The idea was then to create an e-drive Rooikat armoured car., the Combat Vehicle Electric Demonstrator.  And here it is.  Built in 2006.  The project goes back to 1993.  Its current status seems unclear but it did not see service implementation.  The UK is way behind that curve.

 

 

These are the e-drive platforms jointly funded by the UK and Sweden under the SEP programme (Splitterskyddad EnhetsPlattform), data from which informed FRES/Ajax/MIV.  Curiously they have twin diesel engines in the front sponsons with the crew in between.  Mission pods were intended to be common across wheeled and tracked chassis.  BAES attempted to develop the platforms further ("Son of SEP") but without any sales to date.  The wheeled vehicle dropped e-drive to become a conventional wheeled APC.  Here is the Wiki entry on SEP: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitterskyddad_EnhetsPlattform

 

  

 

KIA is working on hydrogen fuel cells, which sounds a little dangerous for combat vehicles........

 

Germany had a Luchs-based 8x8 e-drive vehicle 20 years or so ago, but I can't find a picture of it.  And if you think that Nissan and LTI have broken the mould, think again.  VW paid Magnet Motor to create a 4WD hub-motor petrol-electric Lupo with regenerative braking about 20 years ago, then parked the idea.

 

Just Google "electric military vehicles" and you will be surprised at what is currently being looked-at and developed.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Kingsman
Saved too soon

[Kingsman]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:54 AM, StuartH said:

What future is there for the tank given their susceptibility to drone attacks as demonstrated in Ukraine?

Now that is an entirely other debate.  New thread required........ 

 

This is more about non-tanks.  In most militaries the inventory of tanks is small compared to the inventory of lighter armoured vehicles and softskins.  And it is these that do most of the mileage, consume most of the fuel and create most of the pollution.  Supporting a UK armoured regiment probably requires at least twice the number of softskins than tanks.  When we cut our tank force from 5 regiments to 3 with Challenger 3 we are not only cutting 100 or so tanks but 200-300 other vehicles and their crews and support chain.  But because we did a stupid PFI deal for the HET tank transporters we are stuck with 3 times more than we can now man up and use and are bound to carry on paying for the 2/3 of the fleet we can't use until the end of the contract: tens of £M.  That's bankers for you: greed above all.  But at least they're not consuming or emitting......

 

Maybe we could take a lesson from Germany in WW2, for different reasons, and have different training and operational fuel sources.  Something less polluting for training and general duties, probably the majority of military mileage in peacetime.  You may recall that Germany fuelled training vehicles with acetylene gas later in the war, although in that case driven by lack of benzene.  No I don't mean bringing back wood-burners..........

[Blimpyboy]

 

A Japanese trial of hybrid AFV technology (the T-HEV): https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/basic_pates/documents/ICSILP18Thu1430_Taira_et_al-Tracked_Hybrid-Electric_Combat_vehicle.pdf

 

 

[Kingsman]

Like I said.  Lots of people are up to something in this field.  But nothing heading for practical implementation yet.

 

I'd be interested to know more about the US WW1 electric truck mentioned above.  I can't find anything on US military use of them in WW1, although US-made Walker electric trucks were around by 1918.

 

Interesting short potted history of electric vehicles from the ZF website: https://www.zf.com/mobile/en/stories_9473.html

[StuartH]

On 10/27/2022 at 10:23 PM, Kingsman said:

Readers might find this interesting: https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2021/10/6/electric-vehicles-for-the-military-still-a-pipedream

 

The headline summary of this report in the online magazine says:

 

"In a sprawling study, the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine, said battlefields of the future will require the Army to invest in a mix of energy sources, including jet propellant 8, diesel and renewable diesel, but all-electric vehicles are not yet practical — at least through 2035."

 

"Despite the Army showing interest in electric vehicles, the study, “Powering the U.S. Army of the Future,” noted that all-electric ground combat platforms and tactical supply vehicles are not practical now or in the foreseeable future."

 

More interestingly perhaps are hints about bio-fuels as hydrocarbon replacements, being considerably more power-dense than current battery technology.

 

Great article. Thanks for sharing. Interesting discussion about the merits/disadvantages of a single fuel based armed forces or being able to utilize different fuels depending on what is available.

 

AFV also stands for 'Alternative Fuel Vehicle' so we may well have AFV AFVs in the future 🤔

 

Biofuels and alternative fuels certainly sound like a promising avenue to explore. They've developed a train locomotive that runs on vegetable oil though given the inflationary price rises in cooking oils it may not be any more cost effective than diesel!

£1.75 for 1 litre of vegetable oil in Tesco this morning which is more than petrol.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-58014366

 

 

Australia are trialling a hybrid version of the Bushmaster and one with solar panels fitted. Interesting advantage of utilizing the battery to extend coverage of the vehicle without relying on the limitations of a traditional fuel supply chain:

https://thedriven.io/2022/08/11/bushmaster-goes-electric-australia-unveils-silent-electrified-personnel-vehicle/

 

 

 

The development of hybrid systems may make vehicle design becoming more lightweight, smaller and more nimble:

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/us-army-prepares-for-omfv-bid-evaluations-trending-towards-smaller-hybrid-electric-designs

 

 

 

[Kingsman]

Is the illuminated 'roo a new form of combat ID panel...............?

[dcrfan]

The roo was the vehicles latest road kill 😒 Kangaroos are a significant problem in Aussie for autonomous vehicles and other vehicle safety systems as they don't match otherworld algorithms as they can appear in the sensors from totally unexpected directions including apparently bounding in from space many metres in the air. 

[StuartH]

59 minutes ago, Kingsman said:

Is the illuminated 'roo a new form of combat ID panel...............?

 

It has the sort of look that premier league footballers might go for 🤣

 

Also 3 windscreen wiper blades as well as the LED lighting. I think they need some lessons in battery power conservation.....just think of the extra kms they could get 🤣

[StuartH]

Another electric powered weapon which is likely to develop further in the future are armed robot dogs. 

Seems like many nations are putting a lot of development into this:

 

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2022/07/first-robotic-autonomous-systems-enhanced-brigade-combat-team/

 

China are also pairing drones with robot dogs which can be deployed as and where necessary. AI controlled robot dogs are looking likely.

 

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/china-pairs-armed-robot-dogs-with-drones-that-can-drop-them-anywhere

 

I wonder if the kit manufacturers will start to release these sort of things?